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by Matt Thrower
April 12, 2021
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While confined to our homes, in a time of crisis, introspection and nostalgia are an understandable, comforting response. So too is escapism. I combined both by re-reading some of the pulp fantasy classics I encountered as a teenage nerd. But teenage me is not adult me, and I was surprised and dismayed by my reactions.
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Good rundown on the Elric books. Like you, I ignore Elric at the End of Time as being more of an End of Time book than an Elric book. It's a shame that nobody has made a serious effort to do an Elric movie or even an Elric cartoon, because it has cast such a long shadow over subsequent fantasy, and Moorcock practically deserves royalty checks from Games Workshop. I ran and played a lot of the Stormbringer rpg many years ago and kept all my stuff. I think that I may roll it out for one more Stormbringer campaign next year.
So apparently there are 8 Elric books now. I read them when there were 6, didn't know more books were slotted in afterwards. Not exactly sure how books can follow Stormbringer in the timeline . . .
One of the things I remember about Elric from college was that a good friend, an English major read Stormbringer first and was really impressed with it. He bummed my copies of the other books and read them in order, and by the time he reached book 4 or so he was disappointed, not so much with the earlier works but with Strombringer, "last" in the series at the time, where he expressed to me his disappointment that Elric's character didn't have half of the backstory that he had expected to find in the earlier works. Elric became a shallower character the more he read. He had given the character (i.e., the author) the benefit of the doubt.
That is, Stormbringer stood on its own, impressing a pretty critical reader. When the other materials were slotted in before it, they took away from Stormbringer's quality. To this day 40 years later I'm still trying to square that statement. It clearly had an impact on me.
Right now I'm considering grabbing Graphic Audio's rendition of Corum (same author) but I'm not sure I'm looking to pull that trigger. I enjoyed much of Moorecock's other eternal champion stuff, but that was a long time ago. A kid read that stuff, adult me isn't terribly interested in fiction anymore, may just fall flat.
One of the things I remember about Elric from college was that a good friend, an English major read Stormbringer first and was really impressed with it. He bummed my copies of the other books and read them in order, and by the time he reached book 4 or so he was disappointed, not so much with the earlier works but with Strombringer, "last" in the series at the time, where he expressed to me his disappointment that Elric's character didn't have half of the backstory that he had expected to find in the earlier works. Elric became a shallower character the more he read. He had given the character (i.e., the author) the benefit of the doubt.
That is, Stormbringer stood on its own, impressing a pretty critical reader. When the other materials were slotted in before it, they took away from Stormbringer's quality. To this day 40 years later I'm still trying to square that statement. It clearly had an impact on me.
Right now I'm considering grabbing Graphic Audio's rendition of Corum (same author) but I'm not sure I'm looking to pull that trigger. I enjoyed much of Moorecock's other eternal champion stuff, but that was a long time ago. A kid read that stuff, adult me isn't terribly interested in fiction anymore, may just fall flat.
The Elric books published after Stormbringer are chronologically inserted in between the previous books. There have actually been more like 11 Elric books now, but I personally found nearly everything published after Stormbringer to be a disappointment. White Wolf also published a collection of Elric short stories by other writers, and the first story is actually a new and good one by Moorcock himself.
That's an interesting observation that Elric becomes more shallow as the series goes on. Moorcock was pretty young when he wrote the early Elric books, so his creativity was strong but his character development was more of an afterthought. Later in his career, Moorcock lost some of the wild creativity but became better at character development. The creativity is especially noteworthy when compared to other popular fantasy writers. Elric was likely conceived as an anti-Conan, but he also is a significant departure from the overwhelming number of fantasy stories that combine a coming-of-age story with a boring power fantasy. Meanwhile, Elric is sailing a ship across land to lead an army of blind men into battle, or slaying gods, or summoning demons while in a psychedelic stupor. Moorcock also had a nice knack for names, often using onomatopoeia to strong effect.
My favorite scene in Stormbringer is the very unexpected cameo of a famous historical figure, and the role that he plays.
There were some good Elric comics published in the '80s and '90s, by Marvel's Epic line and then First Comics. Artists often misinterpret Elric as musclebound, when he is in fact skinny and sickly, dependent on magic and herbs. The Elric comics tend to capture a more visually appropriate version of Elric, especially artist P. Craig Russell.
That's an interesting observation that Elric becomes more shallow as the series goes on. Moorcock was pretty young when he wrote the early Elric books, so his creativity was strong but his character development was more of an afterthought. Later in his career, Moorcock lost some of the wild creativity but became better at character development. The creativity is especially noteworthy when compared to other popular fantasy writers. Elric was likely conceived as an anti-Conan, but he also is a significant departure from the overwhelming number of fantasy stories that combine a coming-of-age story with a boring power fantasy. Meanwhile, Elric is sailing a ship across land to lead an army of blind men into battle, or slaying gods, or summoning demons while in a psychedelic stupor. Moorcock also had a nice knack for names, often using onomatopoeia to strong effect.
My favorite scene in Stormbringer is the very unexpected cameo of a famous historical figure, and the role that he plays.
There were some good Elric comics published in the '80s and '90s, by Marvel's Epic line and then First Comics. Artists often misinterpret Elric as musclebound, when he is in fact skinny and sickly, dependent on magic and herbs. The Elric comics tend to capture a more visually appropriate version of Elric, especially artist P. Craig Russell.
While my peers cut their fantasy teeth on Tolkien, I was drawn to Elric. Likely due to having moved around a lot because of my mom's frequent marriages so I felt like a loner amongst people who had history together. I continue to collect the old Eternal Champion series in the old DAW paperback format since those covers are the best. The Eternal Champion omnibus collections are nice to track down as well. For my money, Moorcock is a more interesting writer than Tolkien was, and I will die on that hill.
the_jake_1973 wrote: Moorcock is a more interesting writer than Tolkien was, and I will die on that hill.
I got your back on this one. Tolkien's prose is magnificent, but the story work and characters are pretty pedestrian. Moorcock is much more interesting.
Moorcock has notoriously said a lot about Tolkien, in his critical piece Epic Pooh:
warwick.ac.uk/fac/arts/english/currentst..._m.1978epic_pooh.pdf
Count me as a member of Team Moorcock.
warwick.ac.uk/fac/arts/english/currentst..._m.1978epic_pooh.pdf
Count me as a member of Team Moorcock.
Good stuff, Matt. Thanks.
I have the original DAW yellow spine copies of the first six books (Elric of Melnibone, Sailor on the Seas of Fate, Weird of the White Wolf, The Vanishing Tower, Bane of the Black Sword, Stormbringer) which I acquired from a used bookstore (Remember those?), along with the trio of Corum books, when I was a teenager. I was determined to read them in order and my response was somewhat different from yours. I kind of disliked Sailor because I was more interested in Moorcock's world-building than his excursions into weirdness. Being the constant DM among my RPG groups, world-building was kind of a thing for me at the time. Only later did I come to appreciate the more interesting stories that Sailor and Tower were actually comprised of. The two books that followed many years later were things that I acquired and read, along with the White Wolf collection that Shellhead mentions, but none of that had any real impact on me. "Decent Elric stuff" would be a good summation.
Similar to others, I think Stormbringer or Elric would be my choice for the best of the books, since they're the two with a definite narrative arc, rather than being collections of short stories. And I agree that Theleb Ka'arna was never the threat that Yyrkoon was, unfortunately. I kind of felt that Theleb was played up by later readers, similarly to Thoth-Amon from the Conan stories, who got more exposure in Marvel's comics than he ever really did in Howard's work.
In our last move, I sacrificed the vast majority of my paperback library, not wanting to move them again and not really having the space for them, either. A few hundred went to the curbside trash pickup, because no one would take them (not used bookstores, not libraries, not charities, not resale shops, not the teen center in town- No one.) But among the couple dozen I saved were the Elric and Corum books because I'm still fond of Moorcock's writing and it still seemed like those old yellow spine copies might have some value to someone, sometime.
I have the original DAW yellow spine copies of the first six books (Elric of Melnibone, Sailor on the Seas of Fate, Weird of the White Wolf, The Vanishing Tower, Bane of the Black Sword, Stormbringer) which I acquired from a used bookstore (Remember those?), along with the trio of Corum books, when I was a teenager. I was determined to read them in order and my response was somewhat different from yours. I kind of disliked Sailor because I was more interested in Moorcock's world-building than his excursions into weirdness. Being the constant DM among my RPG groups, world-building was kind of a thing for me at the time. Only later did I come to appreciate the more interesting stories that Sailor and Tower were actually comprised of. The two books that followed many years later were things that I acquired and read, along with the White Wolf collection that Shellhead mentions, but none of that had any real impact on me. "Decent Elric stuff" would be a good summation.
Similar to others, I think Stormbringer or Elric would be my choice for the best of the books, since they're the two with a definite narrative arc, rather than being collections of short stories. And I agree that Theleb Ka'arna was never the threat that Yyrkoon was, unfortunately. I kind of felt that Theleb was played up by later readers, similarly to Thoth-Amon from the Conan stories, who got more exposure in Marvel's comics than he ever really did in Howard's work.
In our last move, I sacrificed the vast majority of my paperback library, not wanting to move them again and not really having the space for them, either. A few hundred went to the curbside trash pickup, because no one would take them (not used bookstores, not libraries, not charities, not resale shops, not the teen center in town- No one.) But among the couple dozen I saved were the Elric and Corum books because I'm still fond of Moorcock's writing and it still seemed like those old yellow spine copies might have some value to someone, sometime.
Moorcock himself seemed only vaguely interested in world-building. The writers for the various editions and adventures for the Stormbringer rpg seized on every detail from the Elric books and worked hard to build them up into a fully-realized setting, but Moorcock was reportedly bemused by their efforts. His later Elric books certainly showed only a loose association with the world of Melnibone and the Young Kingdoms. Speaking of which, this discussion is missing reference to three later Elric books, possible due to the absence of his name from the titles: The Dreamthief's Daughter, the Skrayling Tree, and the White Wolf's Son. I have read the first two, but they didn't leave a lasting impression as they were more average quality works for Moorcock, To establish a baseline, I consider the first six Elric books to be his best, followed by the Von Bek works and then the two Corum trilogies. The Cornelius, Hawkmoon, and End of Time stories were nowhere near as good, and I would put these latest Elric books with the second group.
David Eddings...now there's a name I've not heard....
Can't really knock him if he doesn't satisfy as an adult, I think his stuff is firmly in the YA category, such as it was in the 80's. Brandon Sanderson is basically his successor. Silk was practically a role model for my friends and I.
That old Fire and Ice cartoon is basically Conan versus Elric. There are quite a few 60s to 80s era authors that would be nice to see a Lovecraft type resurgence. Once they go into the public domain I guess.
Can't really knock him if he doesn't satisfy as an adult, I think his stuff is firmly in the YA category, such as it was in the 80's. Brandon Sanderson is basically his successor. Silk was practically a role model for my friends and I.
That old Fire and Ice cartoon is basically Conan versus Elric. There are quite a few 60s to 80s era authors that would be nice to see a Lovecraft type resurgence. Once they go into the public domain I guess.
That's a man who really doesn't like Tolkien.Shellhead wrote: Moorcock has notoriously said a lot about Tolkien, in his critical piece Epic Pooh:
warwick.ac.uk/fac/arts/english/currentst..._m.1978epic_pooh.pdf
Count me as a member of Team Moorcock.
I've read The Belgariad, as a two-volume SF Book Club omnibus. I did finish it, but it was pretty mediocre. It was the essence of Plot Coupons, where the characters collect all the coupons and send them off to the author for the ending.jason10mm wrote: David Eddings...now there's a name I've not heard....
Can't really knock him if he doesn't satisfy as an adult, I think his stuff is firmly in the YA category, such as it was in the 80's. Brandon Sanderson is basically his successor. Silk was practically a role model for my friends and I.
To stay on track: I need to read Eric of Melnibone again - I read it ages ago, and didn't like it. But back then I was all about Conan The Whatever.
Shellhead wrote: I ran and played a lot of the Stormbringer rpg many years ago and kept all my stuff. I think that I may roll it out for one more Stormbringer campaign next year.
I also played Stormbringer when I was about 17. The only thing I remember about it was that my character lucked out on the nationality table and was a Melnibonean sorceror, whereas all the other characters were beggars and farmhands.
I basically was the entire campaign, swatting away every threat and problem like it was a gentle breeze, until I volunteered to retire him and re-roll. It rather soured me on the system, to be honest. It remains, however, a striking example of RPG design philosophy then vs now.
That's a rule I would have marked to be ignored on first reading.
Sagrilarus wrote: One of the things I remember about Elric from college was that a good friend, an English major read Stormbringer first and was really impressed with it. He bummed my copies of the other books and read them in order, and by the time he reached book 4 or so he was disappointed, not so much with the earlier works but with Strombringer, "last" in the series at the time, where he expressed to me his disappointment that Elric's character didn't have half of the backstory that he had expected to find in the earlier works. Elric became a shallower character the more he read. He had given the character (i.e., the author) the benefit of the doubt.
This is similar to the experience I had, reading them in narrative order. Elric doesn't actually have any kind of character arc. His personality is dependent entirely on Moorcock's mood at the time of writing rather than developing along with his experiences. Early Elric is aggressive and bloodthirsty. 70's Elric is whiny and self-pitying. Late Elric is actually a pretty typical fantasy hero.
But this comes back to the point I made about pulp fantasy. Elric has an exaggerated reputation because he's been so hugely influential on fantasy writing and because Moorcock eventually became a writer of considerable literary stature. But pulp Elric is not fine literature, and it's a mistake to read it as such and expect that level of depth and coherence from it. It's a series to be admired for its energy and imagination.
Shellhead wrote: Moorcock has notoriously said a lot about Tolkien, in his critical piece Epic Pooh:
warwick.ac.uk/fac/arts/english/currentst..._m.1978epic_pooh.pdf
Count me as a member of Team Moorcock.
This actually really put me off Moorcock as a person and a writer, because it sticks the boot in quite viciously while failing to understand what it was Tolkein was seeking to achieve with his writing.
It's all very well to criticise a conservative for reflecting their views in their writing. But Tolkien was never about fantasy as a disruptive force: he saw it as a unifying force. A shared mythology that bound cultures together. He sought to re-create Englands lost mythology by scavenging bits from other north European legends. No writer before or since has attempted such a colossal undertaking, let alone succeeded in the degree Tolkien did.
To criticise him for conservatism, or even for the quality of his narratives, is a bit like critiquing Picasso for failing to follow accepted artistic conventions. It rather misses the point.
I agree. He comes off as uninformed — much like a teenager who thinks they know everything. With a tinge of bitterness underlying it all.Matt Thrower wrote:
Shellhead wrote: Moorcock has notoriously said a lot about Tolkien, in his critical piece Epic Pooh:
warwick.ac.uk/fac/arts/english/currentst..._m.1978epic_pooh.pdf
Count me as a member of Team Moorcock.
This actually really put me off Moorcock as a person and a writer, because it sticks the boot in quite viciously while failing to understand what it was Tolkein was seeking to achieve with his writing.
This is my favorite response to that nonsense:
gwydionmadawc.com/57-about-tolkien/defen...ation/#_Toc421951847
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by engineer Al
May 25, 2018
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Robert Heinlein is the greatest writer of Science Fiction that ever lived.
Read more: Engineer Al's Sci-Fi Library: Robert A. Heinlein
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—All You Zombies— is the quintessential time travel story.
A nice writeup sir. A little long, can you remove 400 words?
Stranger in a Strange Land got adopted by the hippie generation, something that propelled it into mainstream consciousness and haunted Heinlein, as he was a very conservative individual politically. But the result was that it has a much larger readership than his other novels. It transcended the genre.
I still think about Friday on occasion. A couple of concepts in that one (not one of his best sellers) hit me differently.
One of my English teachers in college knew him personally and would tell stories in class. "Bobby Heinlein"
Stranger in a Strange Land got adopted by the hippie generation, something that propelled it into mainstream consciousness and haunted Heinlein, as he was a very conservative individual politically. But the result was that it has a much larger readership than his other novels. It transcended the genre.
I still think about Friday on occasion. A couple of concepts in that one (not one of his best sellers) hit me differently.
One of my English teachers in college knew him personally and would tell stories in class. "Bobby Heinlein"
KingPut wrote: My fav is Heinlein.
Pete, I've known you most of my life now, and I had no idea! What are your Heinlein favorites?
I’m also in agreement. He’s prolific, which is his greatest achievement. Only Dick and Clarke rivals him as a contemporary.
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress are literally one of the most excellent works of science fiction as a corollary of the modern (at the time) world.
I ~like~ Burroughs' John Carter series better, and I like Dune better than any one piece that Heinlein ever wrote, but Burroughs is a pulpy guilty pleasure and Dune is a Tolkienesque masterwork that has been diluted in its greatness by its sequels and inability of the Howard estate to stop milking the cow.
But Heinlein...he had timely, interesting, and digestible works which spoke to scholars and fans alike, telling stories while making a statement.
Master.
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress are literally one of the most excellent works of science fiction as a corollary of the modern (at the time) world.
I ~like~ Burroughs' John Carter series better, and I like Dune better than any one piece that Heinlein ever wrote, but Burroughs is a pulpy guilty pleasure and Dune is a Tolkienesque masterwork that has been diluted in its greatness by its sequels and inability of the Howard estate to stop milking the cow.
But Heinlein...he had timely, interesting, and digestible works which spoke to scholars and fans alike, telling stories while making a statement.
Master.
I'm an Asimov lad - how to you compare the two Al ?
I just rewatched half of The Puppet Masters cuz of this thread
I read a bunch of Heinlein in high school then put him down for a long time, but later picked him up (probably 10ish years ago) to fill in some of the gaps (namely The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, which this thread has me wanting to read again). My favorite book of his is probably still JOB: A Comedy of Justice. In High School English I actually wrote a comparison book analysis with it and a play named "JB" (which the teacher suggested after denying me using the actual book of Job form the Bible)...probably one of my favorite writing assignments.
Threads like these make me sad that I barely read anymore...I basically don't do it except when traveling. I should break that habit.
Threads like these make me sad that I barely read anymore...I basically don't do it except when traveling. I should break that habit.
Southernman wrote: I'm an Asimov lad - how to you compare the two Al ?
Actually, I think there are many similarities between the two. Both are born out of the pulps and therefore share a certain attitude toward both science and storytelling. Also both tend to lean toward the "hard" science side of "science fiction". I think Asimov presents ideas that are in some ways more "fantastic", while Heinlein is better at creating characters and his stories are more character driven.
cdennett wrote: My favorite book of his is probably still JOB: A Comedy of Justice.
REALLY? I never read this one because I hated FRIDAY and THE CAT WHO WALKS THROUGH WALLS which were written at around the same time. If you are saying this is good I will be VERY EXCITED. Pretty sure I already have it in the library. . .
Well, let's be clear, I enjoyed the subject matter and story. It resonates with my personal beliefs and I like the way it picks at the hypocrisy and logical dissonance surrounding religion.engineer Al wrote:
cdennett wrote: My favorite book of his is probably still JOB: A Comedy of Justice.
REALLY? I never read this one because I hated FRIDAY and THE CAT WHO WALKS THROUGH WALLS which were written at around the same time. If you are saying this is good I will be VERY EXCITED. Pretty sure I already have it in the library. . .
But I also thought The Cat Who Walks Through Walls was alright, though not terribly memorable, so perhaps my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt.
I bought Friday because the girl on the cover was completely hot.
Gosh, Al, thank you for bringing this wonderful column back. However, I want 25 cents every time someone uses my trademark “Listen” to preface their argument.
Never has a writer gotten me so jazzed about the genre just as much as they have frustrated me like Heinlein has. Perhaps Harlan Ellison, but I’ve read more Heinlein. It’s not that books like STARSHIP TROOPERS and THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS fell flat for me, but rather I completely disagreed with their ideas. And yet I’m still carrying those books around in my headspace years after I’ve read them, while so many others have left me with nothing more than “I liked that” or “I didn’t like that.” They’re far from bad books, especially in the case of TMIAHM, I just completely disagree with their world views. I’ve heard some people say he was doing parody or sarcasm in Starship Troopers, but that’s not at all the case. I think it was in the introduction to THE FOREVER WAR that he was serious about that stuff and Haldeman wrote his book in part as an answer, saying, “No, Heinlein, you’re wrong.” Heinlein is often like the awkaward uncle who comes to family events who makes everyone uncomfortable but you keep him around because you want to hear what he has to say next.
And yet I *LOVE* so much of his stuff. THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS is a masterpiece. THE PAST THROUGH TOMORROW is absolutely wonderful. If there’s one book anyone should pick up by him, it’s that one. HAVE SPACE SUIT WILL TRAVEL is a blast. It may not be his best, but I had a good time with GLORY ROAD.
The greatest? Yeah, maybe. Aside from Asimov, I don’t know who else I’d put in the running.
Never has a writer gotten me so jazzed about the genre just as much as they have frustrated me like Heinlein has. Perhaps Harlan Ellison, but I’ve read more Heinlein. It’s not that books like STARSHIP TROOPERS and THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS fell flat for me, but rather I completely disagreed with their ideas. And yet I’m still carrying those books around in my headspace years after I’ve read them, while so many others have left me with nothing more than “I liked that” or “I didn’t like that.” They’re far from bad books, especially in the case of TMIAHM, I just completely disagree with their world views. I’ve heard some people say he was doing parody or sarcasm in Starship Troopers, but that’s not at all the case. I think it was in the introduction to THE FOREVER WAR that he was serious about that stuff and Haldeman wrote his book in part as an answer, saying, “No, Heinlein, you’re wrong.” Heinlein is often like the awkaward uncle who comes to family events who makes everyone uncomfortable but you keep him around because you want to hear what he has to say next.
And yet I *LOVE* so much of his stuff. THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS is a masterpiece. THE PAST THROUGH TOMORROW is absolutely wonderful. If there’s one book anyone should pick up by him, it’s that one. HAVE SPACE SUIT WILL TRAVEL is a blast. It may not be his best, but I had a good time with GLORY ROAD.
The greatest? Yeah, maybe. Aside from Asimov, I don’t know who else I’d put in the running.
Josh Look wrote: However, I want 25 cents every time someone uses my trademark “Listen” to preface their argument.
$0.25 F:AT cash sent. Even though JOHNNY NEMO coined it first.
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by engineer Al
July 05, 2017
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Stanislaw Lem made me fall in love.
Read more: Engineer Al's Sci-Fi Library: Stanislaw Lem
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Thank you for this article. I'm currently struggling through solaris. I,loved,the beginning but really feel the book gets bogged down towards the latter half.
If it wasn't for you I would give up on his book from here. But I will try out some of his more humerous books now for sure!
If it wasn't for you I would give up on his book from here. But I will try out some of his more humerous books now for sure!
some great stuff here. I'm intrigued to read these but wish I had access to an English language library. Dont know why books are still so expensive, even Electronic ones cost the same as physical ones, outrageous! By now i thought we would have some kind of streaming/subscription based service where you could rent out a book to read for a small sum. Maybe it will happen one day.
Amazon has some sort of Prime/Kindle library with unlimited checkouts. United States libraries have something called Overdrive, if you have a friend with an account who will share. You can often search for "book title" and "full text" and find an Epub or PDF file. And there is always Project Gutenberg and its descendants.Bojack wrote: some great stuff here. I'm intrigued to read these but wish I had access to an English language library. Dont know why books are still so expensive, even Electronic ones cost the same as physical ones, outrageous! By now i thought we would have some kind of streaming/subscription based service where you could rent out a book to read for a small sum. Maybe it will happen one day.
Why don't you have access to an English library?
Thanks for doing this. I've been trying to read more sci-fi lately... it's not usually my thing but my old man is a nut for the stuff and I've been trying to get into it a bit more lately. Someone bought me a copy of Solaris years ago and I enjoyed it but never looked further into his work. I'm just finishing up PKD's Valis trilogy (I think the third isn't really part of it but that's the way it was presented to me) and was going to read 'We' (Yevgeny Zamyatin) next, I'm really curious about that one. So I'm going to throw The Star Diaries, His Masters Voice and Return from the Stars on there too. Hopefully my local library has them... thanks again. Great write up.
Thanks for reading Folks, and thanks for the kind comments. I enjoy writing these articles almost as much as I enjoy seeing what you all have to say. When I get around to writing about Manly Wade Wellman, and Gene Wolfe it will be because of recommendations I received in response to what I wrote.
Cool! What does he like to read? Also, I love PKD, but VALIS is SOOO not where I would start, Thanks for teaching me about WE, seems to be a classic that I somehow knew nothing about.
I agree.LilRed wrote: I'm currently struggling through solaris. I,loved,the beginning but really feel the book gets bogged down towards the latter half.
JonJacob wrote: . . . my old man is a nut for the stuff and I've been trying to get into it a bit more lately.
Cool! What does he like to read? Also, I love PKD, but VALIS is SOOO not where I would start, Thanks for teaching me about WE, seems to be a classic that I somehow knew nothing about.
Bojack wrote: I'm intrigued to read these but wish I had access to an English language library.
Lem's works have been translated into just about every language out there. Wherever you are, you should be able to find something. And just where the heck are you?
engineer Al wrote:
JonJacob wrote: . . . my old man is a nut for the stuff and I've been trying to get into it a bit more lately.
Cool! What does he like to read? Also, I love PKD, but VALIS is SOOO not where I would start, Thanks for teaching me about WE, seems to be a classic that I somehow knew nothing about.
Well the old man's the one who gave me the PKD stuff (5 books as presents in the last three years) and Solaris so those two for sure. As a kid I remember lots of Arthur C Clarke, Ray Bradbury, Isaac Asimov, Frank Herbert, Larry Niven, Douglas Adams, Phillip Jose Farmer, Roger Zelazny... some others I can't recall at the moment. Some trashy and some literary, he had hundreds of the things hanging around. I still remember being a little kid and my father had me read him a chapter or two from Riverworld while we drove to Toronto together but then part way through the reading there were some explicit sexual bits and he snatched the book away from me... I thought for sure I'd read it in secret as soon as I got home but I was ten or so and I never bothered. I still haven't read a thing that guy wrote.
Valis isn't quite where I started with PKD... although I've only read a collection of shorts and two other novels (Man in the High Castle and Ubik) ... but I love Valis so far. I just started book two last week. I normally read religious stuff ... theology, mythology etc.. so it's right up my alley. Although more info on his life would be useful since it seems very personal.
JonJacob wrote: As a kid I remember lots of Arthur C Clarke, Ray Bradbury, Isaac Asimov, Frank Herbert, Larry Niven, Douglas Adams, Phillip Jose Farmer, Roger Zelazny...
That's awesome. Those guys are a bunch of my favorites as well. Except for Farmer, he never really did it for me.
JonJacob wrote: Valis isn't quite where I started with PKD... although I've only read a collection of shorts and two other novels (Man in the High Castle and Ubik) ... but I love Valis so far. I just started book two last week. I normally read religious stuff ... theology, mythology etc.. so it's right up my alley. Although more info on his life would be useful since it seems very personal.
Good, those two are some of my favorites of his and your choice of Valis makes a lot more sense now. What's going on with Valis is obviously subject to debate, but I do think it is personal and I think it is a doorway into the mind of a man who is going insane. HAVE FUN!
Have you read Daemon Al? I'm getting it recommended to me by three different people.
I know I know, hasn't aged sufficiently yet. But I can get it from the library at no charge.
I know I know, hasn't aged sufficiently yet. But I can get it from the library at no charge.
Sagrilarus wrote: Have you read Daemon Al?
Sorry SAG, but my tastes tend toward the older sci-fi for the most part. I've read SOME more contemporary stuff but not much and not that one.
Thanks as always for the great article Al! I never really tried much Lem so it's good to know where to start. Look forward to your Manly Wade article 
I've been reading more modern stuff lately and one you might enjoy is The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet and its standalone sequel. Fun feel-good character focused space adventure. On the flip side of that is Blindsight, a complete mind-fuck with a ton of ideas and a neat take on an unreliable narrator.
Happy reading!
I've been reading more modern stuff lately and one you might enjoy is The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet and its standalone sequel. Fun feel-good character focused space adventure. On the flip side of that is Blindsight, a complete mind-fuck with a ton of ideas and a neat take on an unreliable narrator.
Happy reading!
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by engineer Al
September 29, 2015
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Engineer Al shares his love of Sci-Fi literature.
Read more: Engineer Al's Sci-Fi Library: Samuel R. Delany
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I was actually introduced to Samuel R. Delany's work through Tales of Neveryon, which was a part of my Lit 101 syllabus that also included Kaja Silverman's The Subject of Semiotics, some Freud and Lacan texts, some William Carlos Williams, some Philip K Dick, some... well I don't quite remember all of it. Suffice to say, Neveryon's blending of Sword & Sorcery tropes, queer identity theory, BDSM practices, intertextuality, and hemmoraging of semiological theory into the fiction, all fit perfectly into college academia. It was gloriously pretentious. It also blew my fucking mind.
From that point forward, I went back.
Or rather I went on parallel tracks, retracing various aspects of his work, in the thrall of an intellectual crush that could only really happen during one's college years. While other literature students were geeking out to Derrida or Foucault, I was in the library stacks reading more Delany (ok, maybe an unhealthy amount of Foucault as well).
I think people outside of academia should be aware that, in addition to his fiction, Delany wrote a large, amazingly erudite body of essays and epistolary-style "silent" interviews. These were the subject of borderline obsessive rereading and theorizing on my part, but I'd like to think that this wasn't just because I was a starry-eyed college student.
The essays/interviews are deep but also approachable in an oddly escalating way, where Delany will often launch with an interesting anecdote, followed by some relatively easy-to-follow pondering and analysis, maybe a visual model, then hit the afterburners on a theory that can really stretch the boundaries of what you can synthesize, and will inevitably tie it back to your initial point of entry. It's engrossing but can also become a little overwhelming & disorienting; often warranting multiple rewinds and rereads.
I now have a second copy of Silent Interviews: On Language, Race, Sex, Science Fiction, and Some Comics because my college year scrawls and highlights all over my first copy haven't aged all that well. I highly recommend reading through that collection for a glimpse at the wide swath of topics and theory that swarmed around his composition of science fiction from the "wonder years" period forward. Some of his earlier essay collections have been reprinted (Starboard Wine, Jewel-Hinged Jaw, and The American Shore), but I think Silent Interviews gives an easier survey for newer readers and it's my nostalgic favorite. "Toto, We're Back!" in that collection is an absolute must read.
The next collection Longer Views isn't as topical for most readers here since it branches out to areas that are not immediately connected to SF (Wagner, Donna Haraway, language poetry, etc). It's a good tome of intellectual gymnastics, but skippable for anyone who just wants to tour his SF/paraliterary criticism.
There is an essay in the later Shorter Views that is totally worth a close read by anyone here who is interested in SF, comics, and the discourse of "how stuff signifies" (particularly apt in games criticism). In "The Politics of Paraliterary Criticism," Delany skewers some aspects of Scott McCloud's Understanding Comics in a manner that remains respectful of Scott's work, while enlightening an assumed dichotomy between "craft" and "art" that is much less formally inherent and much more political than one would initially think. Fantastic, illuminating read, with lots of incidental asides that will interest game critics.
Those less into essay-reading and theorizing should also know that he wrote an outstanding, page-turner of an autobiography titled The Motion of Light in Water. It almost feels like the non-fictional twin of Dhalgren in the register of experience and language that it gives the reader; vivid, disorienting, engrossing, sexually candid, poetic. This was a life-changing book that hit me in a sea of already ongoing life changes, on the cusp of my college years, at the precipice of a big move to NYC. It illuminated a new way for me to bring my detached, overloaded, academic theory brain into a closer, more enriching, and more engaged relationship with lived experience. Both of these books are side-by-side on my shelf and will never leave my possession.
I think Delany is probably one of the most brilliant minds to have landed in SF and Sword & Sorcery writing & criticism, and considering my age at this point, I'm not sure I'll ever look at more contemporary thinkers in genre fiction such as Mieville without seeing them as diminished, less assiduous or broadly versed theorists. It's an incurable bias that I'll probably take to my grave.
Despite all of this fanboy gushing, though, I must confess that I too personally prefer Delany's fictional work when he had just achieved escape velocity from writing borderline fan fiction (the "early years") and hadn't quite yet entered the event horizon of post-structuralism and academia. If Chip were to read this, he would likely posit that trajectory as being a convenient fiction itself. He was probably already deeply ensconced in academia in some form or other during that era (I mean, Empire Star is basically "Deconstruction: The Novella"). But his writing during those "wonder years" feels more free, allegorical, and dangerous, more infused with his then recent quasi-bohemian experiences on foreign shores (e.g. Greece in The Einstein Intersection) and the ships where he worked to gain passage to those shores.
While I look back at the Neveryon series fondly and can appreciate it on occasional sittings, I find its allure greatly diminished in my current context as an aging father of two, immersed in a very different framework of social expectations, obligations, and time constraints. I'm no longer in the hyper-interpretive institutional system that framed & validated that series of novels with an intellectual wonder that I think I only could have experienced as a college kid. This is an odd reversal of Chip Delany's own timeline when it comes to his writing, which has never really seemed targeted to a specific, loyal readership. He seems to just write honestly and deeply in the contexts most immediately relevant to him, no matter how esoteric or alternately pornographic, or both, those contexts increasingly become, which distance his writing further and further from my own shores with each year, a sail sinking just past my horizon.
From this point forward, I'm still going back. I chill out with The Einstein Intersection or Dhalgren much more often than Through the Valley of the Nest of Spiders and I think Delany would actually be ok with this.
Some recent Delany talks:
writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Delany.php
From that point forward, I went back.
Or rather I went on parallel tracks, retracing various aspects of his work, in the thrall of an intellectual crush that could only really happen during one's college years. While other literature students were geeking out to Derrida or Foucault, I was in the library stacks reading more Delany (ok, maybe an unhealthy amount of Foucault as well).
I think people outside of academia should be aware that, in addition to his fiction, Delany wrote a large, amazingly erudite body of essays and epistolary-style "silent" interviews. These were the subject of borderline obsessive rereading and theorizing on my part, but I'd like to think that this wasn't just because I was a starry-eyed college student.
The essays/interviews are deep but also approachable in an oddly escalating way, where Delany will often launch with an interesting anecdote, followed by some relatively easy-to-follow pondering and analysis, maybe a visual model, then hit the afterburners on a theory that can really stretch the boundaries of what you can synthesize, and will inevitably tie it back to your initial point of entry. It's engrossing but can also become a little overwhelming & disorienting; often warranting multiple rewinds and rereads.
I now have a second copy of Silent Interviews: On Language, Race, Sex, Science Fiction, and Some Comics because my college year scrawls and highlights all over my first copy haven't aged all that well. I highly recommend reading through that collection for a glimpse at the wide swath of topics and theory that swarmed around his composition of science fiction from the "wonder years" period forward. Some of his earlier essay collections have been reprinted (Starboard Wine, Jewel-Hinged Jaw, and The American Shore), but I think Silent Interviews gives an easier survey for newer readers and it's my nostalgic favorite. "Toto, We're Back!" in that collection is an absolute must read.
The next collection Longer Views isn't as topical for most readers here since it branches out to areas that are not immediately connected to SF (Wagner, Donna Haraway, language poetry, etc). It's a good tome of intellectual gymnastics, but skippable for anyone who just wants to tour his SF/paraliterary criticism.
There is an essay in the later Shorter Views that is totally worth a close read by anyone here who is interested in SF, comics, and the discourse of "how stuff signifies" (particularly apt in games criticism). In "The Politics of Paraliterary Criticism," Delany skewers some aspects of Scott McCloud's Understanding Comics in a manner that remains respectful of Scott's work, while enlightening an assumed dichotomy between "craft" and "art" that is much less formally inherent and much more political than one would initially think. Fantastic, illuminating read, with lots of incidental asides that will interest game critics.
Those less into essay-reading and theorizing should also know that he wrote an outstanding, page-turner of an autobiography titled The Motion of Light in Water. It almost feels like the non-fictional twin of Dhalgren in the register of experience and language that it gives the reader; vivid, disorienting, engrossing, sexually candid, poetic. This was a life-changing book that hit me in a sea of already ongoing life changes, on the cusp of my college years, at the precipice of a big move to NYC. It illuminated a new way for me to bring my detached, overloaded, academic theory brain into a closer, more enriching, and more engaged relationship with lived experience. Both of these books are side-by-side on my shelf and will never leave my possession.
I think Delany is probably one of the most brilliant minds to have landed in SF and Sword & Sorcery writing & criticism, and considering my age at this point, I'm not sure I'll ever look at more contemporary thinkers in genre fiction such as Mieville without seeing them as diminished, less assiduous or broadly versed theorists. It's an incurable bias that I'll probably take to my grave.
Despite all of this fanboy gushing, though, I must confess that I too personally prefer Delany's fictional work when he had just achieved escape velocity from writing borderline fan fiction (the "early years") and hadn't quite yet entered the event horizon of post-structuralism and academia. If Chip were to read this, he would likely posit that trajectory as being a convenient fiction itself. He was probably already deeply ensconced in academia in some form or other during that era (I mean, Empire Star is basically "Deconstruction: The Novella"). But his writing during those "wonder years" feels more free, allegorical, and dangerous, more infused with his then recent quasi-bohemian experiences on foreign shores (e.g. Greece in The Einstein Intersection) and the ships where he worked to gain passage to those shores.
While I look back at the Neveryon series fondly and can appreciate it on occasional sittings, I find its allure greatly diminished in my current context as an aging father of two, immersed in a very different framework of social expectations, obligations, and time constraints. I'm no longer in the hyper-interpretive institutional system that framed & validated that series of novels with an intellectual wonder that I think I only could have experienced as a college kid. This is an odd reversal of Chip Delany's own timeline when it comes to his writing, which has never really seemed targeted to a specific, loyal readership. He seems to just write honestly and deeply in the contexts most immediately relevant to him, no matter how esoteric or alternately pornographic, or both, those contexts increasingly become, which distance his writing further and further from my own shores with each year, a sail sinking just past my horizon.
From this point forward, I'm still going back. I chill out with The Einstein Intersection or Dhalgren much more often than Through the Valley of the Nest of Spiders and I think Delany would actually be ok with this.
Some recent Delany talks:
writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Delany.php
Wow, Paul. Thanks for ALL of this. Just took a quick peek at the link and it looks incredibly cool. Also, you are not the first person to recommend The Motion of Light in Water. I definitely need to pick that one up.
Good lord Frohike. I was going to stop in to say "yeah, Dhalgren, woo" and then THAT. I feel like I ain't even been to kolledge!
I've read Dhalgren (of course), Triton, Einstein Intersection, Stars in my Pocket, the first Tales of Neveryon, and Nova. So kind of the "major works".
He's definitely a compelling, intensely _skilled_ writer aiming for quite a bit more than the usual genre touchpoints. Even his more rootsy SF works are full of these eccentricities, academic hooks and intellectual exercises that set him apart from someone like, say, Heinlein. But you do have to kind of be wired to appreciate this kind of thing, because I think it goes without saying that Delany is not for everyone. There is undoubtedly a challenge he is issuing to readers, and some of his material can actually be quite off-putting or willfully difficult.
Dhalgren is a great example of that...but you know, it's a book that needs to be considered closer to Ulysses than anything else in the SF genre. The interesting thing about about that book, at least from my experience with it, is that you can pick it up and start reading anywhere and it's interesting, extremely well-written and impactful. I've done that numerous times, and because so much of it is surreal, indescribable or frustratingly obtuse in terms of specific narrative I actually appreciate it more in pieces than as a whole.
Frohike really kind of nailed why I like writers like Delany...he's somebody that "landed" in SF/fantasy but completely obliterated genre boundaries to create his work. You look at the academic, intellectual and emotional scope of Delany in comparison to just about any SF author today and the gulf is vast. Other writers might be more accessible, entertaining or interesting at a surface level, but this is somebody that you can dig WAY DEEP into across a number of vectors.
Let's keep these coming, I love this feature. Suggestions- Blish, Disch, Butler, Bester, Wolfe...
I've read Dhalgren (of course), Triton, Einstein Intersection, Stars in my Pocket, the first Tales of Neveryon, and Nova. So kind of the "major works".
He's definitely a compelling, intensely _skilled_ writer aiming for quite a bit more than the usual genre touchpoints. Even his more rootsy SF works are full of these eccentricities, academic hooks and intellectual exercises that set him apart from someone like, say, Heinlein. But you do have to kind of be wired to appreciate this kind of thing, because I think it goes without saying that Delany is not for everyone. There is undoubtedly a challenge he is issuing to readers, and some of his material can actually be quite off-putting or willfully difficult.
Dhalgren is a great example of that...but you know, it's a book that needs to be considered closer to Ulysses than anything else in the SF genre. The interesting thing about about that book, at least from my experience with it, is that you can pick it up and start reading anywhere and it's interesting, extremely well-written and impactful. I've done that numerous times, and because so much of it is surreal, indescribable or frustratingly obtuse in terms of specific narrative I actually appreciate it more in pieces than as a whole.
Frohike really kind of nailed why I like writers like Delany...he's somebody that "landed" in SF/fantasy but completely obliterated genre boundaries to create his work. You look at the academic, intellectual and emotional scope of Delany in comparison to just about any SF author today and the gulf is vast. Other writers might be more accessible, entertaining or interesting at a surface level, but this is somebody that you can dig WAY DEEP into across a number of vectors.
Let's keep these coming, I love this feature. Suggestions- Blish, Disch, Butler, Bester, Wolfe...
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- Parent Category: Culture
- Category: Books and Comics
by engineer Al
June 16, 2015
7900
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Engineer Al shares his love of Sci-Fi literature.
Read more: Engineer Al's Sci-Fi Library: Jack Vance
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Thanks Al!
I have a lot of catching up to do, having never read...any of these. I may have seen one or two on the library shelves growing up, but as with so many of the great sf writers a lot of stuff is just buried unless you know to look for it.
I have a lot of catching up to do, having never read...any of these. I may have seen one or two on the library shelves growing up, but as with so many of the great sf writers a lot of stuff is just buried unless you know to look for it.
@iguanaD- Well, now you know. As you may have noticed my recommendations here are stronger than any previous post. I guarantee you will not be disappointed. I'll look forward to hearing what you read and what you thought about it.
@Gary- YES YOU DO!
@Gary- YES YOU DO!
@Motorik- Quite true. I have never seen the movie or read the book so I don't have much to say. For whatever reason the book is OOP and hard to find. The prices for a used copy on Amazon are beyond ridiculous. It is available on Kindle, but I like BOOKS!
I guess I should give the movie a shot. . .
I guess I should give the movie a shot. . .
Well said. Vane is one of a tiny handful of fantasy authors who've risen beyond the pulp conventions of the genre into something unique, with real literary quality. He should have must-read status yet he languishes in obscurity.
I've never read any of his sci-fi work. I should remedy that.
I've never read any of his sci-fi work. I should remedy that.
As a D&D player I'm ashamed I've still not read the Dying Earth. I'll push it up on the queue. Thanks, Al.
Vance is great. Eyes of the Overworld is one of the three great fantasy narratives and I agree, despite everyone borrowing from him Vance is oft ignored by name. I have Lyonesse, or one of the books from the series but am yet to read it. Good words Al.
I've read the majority of the books that Gary Gygax recommended in the first edition of the Dungeon Master's Guide, including The Dying Earth and The Eyes of the Overworld. Jack Vance is a fantastic writer, with a knack for interesting names and flowery yet witty language. All four of the books in the Dying Earth series are excellent. I've tried some of his other works, but Lyonesse was long-winded, and his science-fiction Demon Princes books were dry and lifeless compared to the Dying Earth stories. The Dying Earth is a great entry point to the setting, because it's a collection of short stories in that setting, while the other three books are novel-length adventures.
Fans of the Dying Earth should also read Tales of the Dying Earth, a modern collection of stories set in the Dying Earth that were written by other writers. Nearly every single one of them manages to nail the concept, delivering a decent approximation of Vance's writing style and stories that generally fit right in with the setting. One of the best stories was written by George R.R. Martin, who also edited this large book. Each story is preceded by the writer describing how Vance influenced their writing, or at least how they first encountered the Dying Earth stories.
Fans of the Dying Earth should also read Tales of the Dying Earth, a modern collection of stories set in the Dying Earth that were written by other writers. Nearly every single one of them manages to nail the concept, delivering a decent approximation of Vance's writing style and stories that generally fit right in with the setting. One of the best stories was written by George R.R. Martin, who also edited this large book. Each story is preceded by the writer describing how Vance influenced their writing, or at least how they first encountered the Dying Earth stories.
Do you have the full list? I would love to see Gygax's recommendations. There's at least one tale in The Dying Earth that is pretty much a D&D adventure, specially in mood (The one in which one guy can't suffer no ill as long as he stays on the path).Shellhead wrote: I've read the majority of the books that Gary Gygax recommended in the first edition of the Dungeon Master's Guide, including The Dying Earth and The Eyes of the Overworld.
I read The Dying Earth a while ago, it was incredibly dry at first and it made my head hurt. But after a while it gets better and you stary enjoying it more and more. I think Vance writes fantasy as one would write science ficition which is odd, but gives the tales a lot of character (I mean, strictly speaking the series IS science-fiction, isn't it?). I think his prose gets much, much better as he ages, I want to check out later books of his for this reason.
www.digital-eel.com/blog/ADnD_reading_list.htm
Anderson, Poul: THREE HEARTS AND THREE LIONS; THE HIGH CRUSADE; THE BROKEN SWORD
Bellairs, John: THE FACE IN THE FROST
Brackett, Leigh
Brown, Frederic
Burroughs, Edgar Rice: "Pellucidar" series; Mars series; Venus series
Carter, Lin: "World's End" series
de Camp, L. Sprague: LEST DARKNESS FALL; THE FALLIBLE FIEND; et al
de Camp & Pratt: "Harold Shea" series; THE CARNELIAN CUBE
Derleth, August
Dunsany, Lord
Farmer, P. J.: "The World of the Tiers" series; et al
Fox, Gardner: "Kothar" series; "Kyrik" series; et al
Howard, R. E.: "Conan" series
Lanier, Sterling: HIERO'S JOURNEY
Leiber, Fritz: "Fafhrd & Gray Mouser" series; et al
Lovecraft, H. P.
Merritt, A.: CREEP, SHADOW, CREEP; MOON POOL; DWELLERS IN THE MIRAGE; et al
Moorcock, Michael: STORMBRINGER; STEALER OF SOULS; "Hawkmoon" series (esp. the first three books)
Norton, Andre
Offutt, Andrew J.: editor of SWORDS AGAINST DARKNESS III
Pratt, Fletcher: BLUE STAR; et al
Saberhagen, Fred: CHANGELING EARTH; et al
St. Clair, Margaret: THE SHADOW PEOPLE; SIGN OF THE LABRYS
Tolkien, J. R. R.: THE HOBBIT; "Ring trilogy"
Vance, Jack: THE EYES OF THE OVERWORLD; THE DYING EARTH; et al
Weinbaum, Stanley
Wellman, Manley Wade
Williamson, Jack
Zelazny, Roger: JACK OF SHADOWS; "Amber" series; et al
Anderson, Poul: THREE HEARTS AND THREE LIONS; THE HIGH CRUSADE; THE BROKEN SWORD
Bellairs, John: THE FACE IN THE FROST
Brackett, Leigh
Brown, Frederic
Burroughs, Edgar Rice: "Pellucidar" series; Mars series; Venus series
Carter, Lin: "World's End" series
de Camp, L. Sprague: LEST DARKNESS FALL; THE FALLIBLE FIEND; et al
de Camp & Pratt: "Harold Shea" series; THE CARNELIAN CUBE
Derleth, August
Dunsany, Lord
Farmer, P. J.: "The World of the Tiers" series; et al
Fox, Gardner: "Kothar" series; "Kyrik" series; et al
Howard, R. E.: "Conan" series
Lanier, Sterling: HIERO'S JOURNEY
Leiber, Fritz: "Fafhrd & Gray Mouser" series; et al
Lovecraft, H. P.
Merritt, A.: CREEP, SHADOW, CREEP; MOON POOL; DWELLERS IN THE MIRAGE; et al
Moorcock, Michael: STORMBRINGER; STEALER OF SOULS; "Hawkmoon" series (esp. the first three books)
Norton, Andre
Offutt, Andrew J.: editor of SWORDS AGAINST DARKNESS III
Pratt, Fletcher: BLUE STAR; et al
Saberhagen, Fred: CHANGELING EARTH; et al
St. Clair, Margaret: THE SHADOW PEOPLE; SIGN OF THE LABRYS
Tolkien, J. R. R.: THE HOBBIT; "Ring trilogy"
Vance, Jack: THE EYES OF THE OVERWORLD; THE DYING EARTH; et al
Weinbaum, Stanley
Wellman, Manley Wade
Williamson, Jack
Zelazny, Roger: JACK OF SHADOWS; "Amber" series; et al
www.digital-eel.com/blog/ADnD_reading_list.htm
Some of these books didn't make a lasting impression on me. Some of these writers had a major influence on fantasy and need no further endorsement. But I do want to call attention to The Face in the Frost, by John Bellairs. It was a wonderfully quirky story about wizards, either amusing or spooky at various points.
Some of these books didn't make a lasting impression on me. Some of these writers had a major influence on fantasy and need no further endorsement. But I do want to call attention to The Face in the Frost, by John Bellairs. It was a wonderfully quirky story about wizards, either amusing or spooky at various points.
On that list I am a huge fan of Manly Wade Wellman's Silver John stories, which was recently reprinted by paizo under their planet stories line.
Great Appalachian horror-fantasy type stuff. Really nails the feel; Silver John plays a silver-stringed guitar and songs are an important part of the stories.
Great Appalachian horror-fantasy type stuff. Really nails the feel; Silver John plays a silver-stringed guitar and songs are an important part of the stories.
Glad to see that there is some excellent conversation going on here. My favorite part of posting these blogs has been getting recommendations from you guys for stuff I haven't read. I just ordered THE FACE IN THE FROST on Amazon. Unfortunately WHO FEARS THE DEVIL, which is the collection of "Silver John" stories published by Paizo, seems to be OOP and of course selling for unreasonable prices. Hopefully it will be reprinted soon as it looks very interesting.
Gene Wolfe is an excellent writer, though his prose is less flashy than Vance's. Wolfe does interesting things, like significant tonal shifts and unreliable narrators, and his New Sun works provide a rich setting. However, Wolfe often ends his earlier stories with frustrating ambiguity. Not in a classic way where the reader can choose whichever interpretation is most satisfying, but more in a what-the-hell-just-happened way. Maybe he just doesn't know how to end stories, or maybe it's an extreme stylistic choice on his part. The other interesting thing about Wolfe is that his writing continues to impress, even in just the last few years. Fans of Lovecraft should read An Evil Guest.
You can say again about Wolfe being fond of ambiguity. I threw Solider of the Mist across the room in a rage when I got to the end.
The Books of the New Sun don't read at all like Vance to me. They're very clever, multi-layered and evoke an extraordinary sense of place. But they also have a tendency toward being plodding. And the series is over long. At times, it just felt like Wolfe was getting a little too fond of his own cleverness.
The Books of the New Sun don't read at all like Vance to me. They're very clever, multi-layered and evoke an extraordinary sense of place. But they also have a tendency toward being plodding. And the series is over long. At times, it just felt like Wolfe was getting a little too fond of his own cleverness.
MattDP wrote: You can say again about Wolfe being fond of ambiguity. I threw Solider of the Mist across the room in a rage when I got to the end.
The Books of the New Sun don't read at all like Vance to me. They're very clever, multi-layered and evoke an extraordinary sense of place. But they also have a tendency toward being plodding. And the series is over long. At times, it just felt like Wolfe was getting a little too fond of his own cleverness.
If you ever give Wolfe another try, pick something that he has written in the 21st century. His stories are more focused, with better pacing, and the endings steer clear of ambiguity, aside from the unreliable narrators. I do like the unreliable narration, because it gives a story at least one extra layer of depth. Here is the story, and then here is the narrator's understanding of the events in the story. For example, an unreliable narrator might congratulate himself mentally on handling a conversation with his wife well, but a reader might read the dialogue and shake his head, thinking "you shouldn't have said that."
Amazon really jacks the price up on Paizo's Planet Stories books for some reason...The Complete John Silver is available directly from Paizo at a fairly reasonable price.
paizo.com/products/btpy85jz?Who-Fears-th...Complete-Silver-John
paizo.com/products/btpy85jz?Who-Fears-th...Complete-Silver-John
I actually like a Soldier of the Mist, and have its follow up in progress. As for Vance vs Wolfe. Vance is easier to read and more of a fun first approach, Wolfe is very intellectual. In The Book of the New Sun and a Soldier of the Mist he is studying the realities of translating ancient texts and whether you can really trust or understand the account as the writer intended. Vance, at least in the Dying Sun and the other bits I've read isn't trying to make some sort of grand observation, he's writing fantastic fiction. I'm not sure who i prefer.
I thought the Memento-style conceit of the Latro series was brilliant but I definitely had some detective fatigue/frustration during the last half of the story. The lacunae in the Book of the New Sun were just leading enough to allow for some pretty awesome conclusions to be deduced on a single read, but the stretch with the Talos "play" always feels like purgatory to me and Urth of the New Sun just wasn't written as well as the rest of the series; to the point where I wished I hadn't read it and tainted my experience. Gotta love Baldanders though (I always picture him as Andre the Giant).
I think my favorites of Wolfe are some of his older, shorter ones: The Fifth Head of Cerberus because of its weird, loosely but not-so-loosely interrelated novellas told from different vantages that still held together as a prismatic whole, and Peace because it initially reads like a surrealist gothic rambling that someone like Djuna Barnes might have written but contains a twist that, once perceived, mutates the book into something more evil and intentional.
I still think some of his work is hit-or-miss depending upon how much he decides to (or is a able to) formulate characters that can remain as points of identification despite narrative unreliability. I never got through the Long Sun series because Patera Silk was just too damned boring and I walked away from the Wizard Knight still thinking that Sir Able of the High Hart was mostly a little shit.
Anyway, enough rambling about Wolfe. Time to read some more Vance.
I think my favorites of Wolfe are some of his older, shorter ones: The Fifth Head of Cerberus because of its weird, loosely but not-so-loosely interrelated novellas told from different vantages that still held together as a prismatic whole, and Peace because it initially reads like a surrealist gothic rambling that someone like Djuna Barnes might have written but contains a twist that, once perceived, mutates the book into something more evil and intentional.
I still think some of his work is hit-or-miss depending upon how much he decides to (or is a able to) formulate characters that can remain as points of identification despite narrative unreliability. I never got through the Long Sun series because Patera Silk was just too damned boring and I walked away from the Wizard Knight still thinking that Sir Able of the High Hart was mostly a little shit.
Anyway, enough rambling about Wolfe. Time to read some more Vance.
I got through the Long Sun series just fine, only to stumble into one of Wolfe's worst endings. I literally do not understand how that last book ended. If Wolfe was a comedian, it was as though he finished his set by speaking in tongues and then dropping the mike. I ignored Wolfe for many years after that, until I read Home Fires a few years ago. It wasn't his best work, but it was much more accessible, and I have since read more of the modern Wolfe books and found them enjoyable.