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× Talk about the latest and greatest AT, and the Classics.

Risk: Legacy...

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23 Aug 2011 15:41 #101980 by madwookiee
Replied by madwookiee on topic Re: Risk: Legacy...

Sagrilarus wrote:

mjl1783 wrote: And do we want one that plays like yours does? What if your copy plays like shit, or if it was excellent for games 8-10, but never equalled what it once was after that?


This was exactly what I thought when I read the same passage. What if something happens in the first game that turns your copy into a turd?

It's difficult to take this seriously without a real sense of what the consequences are. Knowing Rob's work, as well as Chris's, I'd be a moron to think that they hadn't considered this and designed around it. Admittedly, part of my excitement for this title lies in an appreciation for the designers and an expectation that they'll deliver another solid title. So far, they haven't disappointed me.

mjl1783 wrote: If it isn't a real probability that some people will end up with awesome copies of the game while others' completely suck, then the permanent changes can't be said to be of real consequence.


This was too profound a concept to occur to me on short notice.

S.

Cynical != profound.

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23 Aug 2011 17:47 #101995 by Sagrilarus
Replied by Sagrilarus on topic Re: Risk: Legacy...

madwookiee wrote: Knowing Rob's work, as well as Chris's, I'd be a moron to think that they hadn't considered this and designed around it.



So here's the thing. I hold off, but you buy a copy sight-unseen because you have faith in the designers. And the game rocks. It kicks ass and takes names. With eight plays in you give it a stunning review.

Should I buy it? Will my copy be good too?

S.

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23 Aug 2011 20:45 #102016 by Dr. Mabuse
Replied by Dr. Mabuse on topic Re: Risk: Legacy...
Designer's Notes are up . Very interesting

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23 Aug 2011 21:12 - 23 Aug 2011 21:13 #102017 by DeletedUser
Replied by DeletedUser on topic Re: Risk: Legacy...

Dr. Mabuse wrote: Designer's Notes are up . Very interesting

It sounds great. But I'm still a wee bit sceptical.

I liked Bistro's comment on BGG though. Treat is as a grand experiment, go in boots and all and see what happens. If you accept that the concept may or may not work, you are probably going to be more relaxed about the outcome, whatever that may be. Good luck to you early adopters!
Last edit: 23 Aug 2011 21:13 by DeletedUser.

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23 Aug 2011 22:43 #102024 by mjl1783
Replied by mjl1783 on topic Re: Risk: Legacy...
Well, the designer's notes pretty much reinforce my skepticism.

We all make plenty of decisions every day. Many are meaningless. Some stay with us forever. We all have the girl (or boy) who got away, the job we should or shouldn’t have taken, the night out that ended badly, the girl (or boy) we should’ve let get away. We can move on from these or try to atone or learn from them or even enjoy who we are because of them, but there’s one thing we can’t do: we can’t take them back. There are no do overs in life. Some decisions just make you who you are.


Already, we're not off to a very good start. The fact that there are no do-overs in life is precisely why games are fun in the first place. Firing a shotgun in real life is a lot more exciting than shooting one in Call of Duty, but if we ran around shooting at each other in real life, one of us will be dead and the other will have taken a life, no take-backs.

This is what we play board games to do; make decisions that seem to matter while you're making them, but carry no real negative consequences if you make the wrong ones. The Reset button was invented for a reason.

It is one thing to play a card in a game to gain an advantage. It is entirely different to play a card and then rip it up, banning it from the game forever (I know that none of you will actually rip it up). Or to mark a territory that will change its destiny from here on out. It’s a different decision process. How important is that card now? Will it be more important in a future game? Will you have it then? Is this the time? Is it worth it? ... But there are certainly decisions that will tilt it in one person’s favor. It would be a mistake to sit down for game 7 of this game and think that all the players are on equal footing. There will be imbalance. If one person has gotten early control over the game system, it is up to the other players to band together to equalize things. These games are about a series of asymmetrical challenges.


There we go; the decisions you make can shift the balance of the game to permanently favor one player over another. Apparently, these changes carry enough weight that you will be agonizing over the decisions you make. All this suggests that it is possible to break the game by making certain decisions, possibly without even knowing the potential consequences of your actions since there are "surprises" that kick in periodically.

So what if I break my game?

We hope you won’t. We tried to. The decisions you make are, for the most part, a series of micro decisions, that add up to some big influence on the feel and history of your game. It would be practically impossible for any one decision to break it.


OK, so one decision won't break the game. That doesn't rule out the possibility that a number of decisions will break it. If that's the case, don't tell me you hope I don't, tell me what happens if I do. If what happens is I get stuck with a broken game, then say that's what might happen.

But the "we tried to" suggests that it probably won't happen. So then why should I be sweating over whether or not this card will be useful later any harder than I would in a game without these permanent changes?

Either I am making meaningful decisions, or I'm not. If you're going to tell me that what I do in the game is a big deal because it will change the rules forever, and nobody else's game will be like mine because they won't make all the same choices, but not to worry because it'll probably still be good no matter what, you are either over or underestimating the weight of these decisions.

The only other possibility is that you have designed a game that is both good and self-replicating, in which case, bullshit. And finally...

Of course, you can fake it and give yourself the way back. The undo. The temporary work around. It’s not hard to do that.


If it's not hard to give myself the way back, then why the hell wouldn't I? More than that, if I can get by easily without permanently altering my game, how is this whole concept anything other than a cheap gimmick? And if you know people are going to flat-out refuse to rip up their cards, then why not just build the workaround into the game? What is the actual logical reason for having changes that can't be undone?

What is hard is to put that first sticker on the board and realize that it’ll be there forever.


Oh, I see, because not putting the stickers on is for pussies. Well fuck, I'm sold.

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23 Aug 2011 23:14 - 23 Aug 2011 23:21 #102025 by Mr. Bistro
Replied by Mr. Bistro on topic Re: Risk: Legacy...

mjl1783 wrote: Either I am making meaningful decisions, or I'm not. If you're going to tell me that what I do in the game is a big deal because it will change the rules forever, and nobody else's game will be like mine because they won't make all the same choices, but not to worry because it'll probably still be good no matter what, you are either over or underestimating the weight of these decisions.

Really? You can't see how the decisions could be meaningful without ruining the game? I would think good designers could do that well enough. I mean, isn't that what their job is about to begin with?

I can get having reservations about the game, but venomous ranting seems a wee bit premature.
Last edit: 23 Aug 2011 23:21 by Mr. Bistro.
The following user(s) said Thank You: madwookiee

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24 Aug 2011 00:45 - 24 Aug 2011 00:46 #102034 by mjl1783
Replied by mjl1783 on topic Re: Risk: Legacy...

Really? You can't see how the decisions could be meaningful without ruining the game? I would think good designers could do that well enough. I mean, isn't that what their job is about to begin with?


If there isn't a possibility that their permanent impact upon the game will be a negative one, then no, they're not meaningful in the sense that Daviau is using the word in his notes. If I am to "sweat a bit" over these decisions, that implies implies that one choice will produce a less favorable outcome than another, right? If the consequences are permanent alterations of the way the game plays from one session to the next, doesn't it stand to reason that it would be possible to change the game in such a way that it is just not as much fun to play your copy as it is mine?

If the designers took this into account and limited the parameters to be changed so that things like the basic balance, playability, game length etc. can't be pushed so far in any particular direction as to become all fucked up, how much are you really changing the game?

My guess is that your copy probably won't end up broken, because it probably won't be unique in any substantial way. I'm betting what we're talking about are a bunch of incidental little changes, and your copy will end up playing more or less the same as everyone else's.

I can get having reservations about the game, but venomous ranting seems a wee bit premature.


Oh, please.

When someone proposes a game that A) will not be the same game after you've played it a few times as it was when you got it, B) might change in ways that you can't predict or do anything to prevent, and C) stays that way for good, it's absolutely reasonable to be skeptical. Why the changes need to be permanent to be meaningful, what happens if those break the game, and whether or not they are going to produce a game that is significantly different from the umpteen versions of Risk you probably already have are all perfectly legitimate questions to ask.

Somebody posted a link where the designer tries to answer these questions. I'm sorry, but his answers suck. The game might in fact turn out be the best game EVAR, but his answers to these questions would still have sucked. I laid out some reasoned, logical objections to those answers. That is not venomous ranting; you accusing me of venomous ranting without putting up a substantive argument of your own is just whining.
Last edit: 24 Aug 2011 00:46 by mjl1783.

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24 Aug 2011 01:53 - 24 Aug 2011 01:54 #102038 by Mr. Bistro
Replied by Mr. Bistro on topic Re: Risk: Legacy...
I need no substantive argument to make an observation. And I agreed there were reasons to have reservations. I just see no reason to beat your breast and say Hasbro is calling people pussies for not liking the stickers.

I was impressed with the designer's answers.
Last edit: 24 Aug 2011 01:54 by Mr. Bistro.

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24 Aug 2011 01:57 #102039 by robdaviau
Replied by robdaviau on topic Re: Risk: Legacy...

mjl1783 wrote: Somebody posted a link where the designer tries to answer these questions. I'm sorry, but his answers suck.


You rang?

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24 Aug 2011 02:10 #102043 by Mr. Bistro
Replied by Mr. Bistro on topic Re: Risk: Legacy...
Yes my good man. Two mojitos please.

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