Descent & RtL or Wizard Kings?

I know they aren't the same game type, but I've been contemplating both of these game/systems for a long time now, and due to recent events (FFG price hike and columbia $99 WK sale) it seems that if I'm gonna pull the trigger, it's got to be now.

I really like HotS and Crusader Rex, and played Greyhawk Wars back in highschool. Wizard Kings looks like a mix of the two. I understand it lacks scenarios, but I would think part of the fun will be coming up with some.

I also used to own and play HQ, WHQ, AHQ, and DQ. I'd like to fill the hole in my library with a good dungeoncrawl. Also, being a former warhammer/blood bowl player I think I'd like to paint up the set.

my game group is currently on/off with us being in our early 30's, kids are starting to pop into the mix (my own is 18 months). I'm sure neither of these two games will see the table enough to warrant the price, but the 'hobby' end (scenario building or painting) will more than make up for it. Also the current make up of the group is 2 former role-players (1 also being a lite wargamer) and 2 very casual gamers (more hold'em players but like Settlers and LNoE) with various other stragglers drifting in and out.

My concerns on the two games are that I hear RtL can take it's toll on a group, and I wonder if we'll even play it enough to finish out a campaign. On the other hand, I understand the standard JitD dungeons are damn long. Maybe to long for a given evening. With wizard kings, I have a slight concern with the level of complexity (hex sides, etc) and how to keep the fog of war with 5-6 guys at the table. Perhaps that's solved with teams or scenario design.

Anyway, thoughts?

I would do some research before jumping into Wizard Kings. From what I've heard, is that it plays more like a WWI wargame, than fantasy game in many cases. They did, however, come out with a second edition recently. It changed the format, for better or worse, but I personally can't make any comments on its quality.

You already know that this is an apples and oranges situation...

What's in the WK sale? If it's 2nd edition, I think you need to have at least 4 of the expansion maps and 10 or so boosters to really get the most out of it. I have about that much (I think I have 12 boosters, actually) and it seems to be about right. Less than that and you're not really going to have decent armies for all sides.

I like WK. If you like Columbia Games' system, you'll probably like it well enough because it's pretty much their standard racket (well, at least the hex-based variant of their racket). The magic is pretty limited but it adds some fun and the terrain is a tremendous factor in the game. The game is only as good as the scenarios you're playing though- the system is really simple and it kind of falls on the scenario designer to transcend the generic feel of the rules. It's fun though, and I like that it can support a big group. It's definitely a different feel from HOTS or CRUSADER REX and GREYHAWK WARS probably isn't too far off base.

DESCENT is much more in line with the games you listed and I feel confident that it'd be a hit with your group. Length is a big problem though- RTL is awesome, one of the coolest expansions ever...but does your group really want to commit to playing DESCENT every session for 10 sessions? Sure, you can pull it out and play for an hour if you want...but setting it up and breaking it back down and recording everything is 30 minutes on its own. That's the one problem I have with RTL- it does make the dungeons shorter, but the game is still too long and paced too slowly. But that being said, it's a great game. I'm sure there's a way you can take the random dungeon generation thing and come up with some way to play short, 3 floor dungeons as one-offs, I just haven't worked it out yet.

For the record, I've started three RTL campaigns and finished none. I know a couple of other people who've started them and haven't finished them either. The Legendary Will Kenyon almost finished one, I think they got to gold level last weekend. I think that there's almost too much commitment required given the game's actual depth and level of detail.

It's a good set for painting if you like that...I've seen some damn fine looking DESCENT sets, and our own Frank Branham has done an amazing job making a 3D dungeon tile set...so the game does support modeling very well.

So my overall recommendation? MUTANT CHRONICLES: SIEGE OF THE CITADEL.

Well I've always been a proponent of Descent, and I'm sure if you're a former miniatures guy you'll enjoy painting the Descent minis and creating your own dungeon tile scenery and what not. You can also have fun in creating your own scenarios.

As for to go RTL or not? Yes, a lot of the Descent quests can be pretty long (in the 3-5 hour range) which can be pretty taxing. No, you probably wouldn't want to play them on any given weeknight, but they make for fun weekend gaming.

Road to Legend offers shorter playing times (you can play for as long or as little as you want) with the added bonus of continuity of sessions. There's no need to be real gung ho about it, forcing people to specific times and dates. You can be real casual about it. If you've got shifting players or people who can't make it to the game night, just have somebody else sit in as one of the heroes.

As for Wizard Kings, that's a game I've been interested in for a while myself. I'm not sure how it would work with 5-6 players though. I think it's usually a 2 player or even a 3-4 player type game.

Thanks for all the comments. Here are some of my thoughts based y'alls feedback.

I would do some research before jumping into Wizard Kings. From what I've heard, is that it plays more like a WWI wargame, than fantasy game in many cases. They did, however, come out with a second edition recently. It changed the format, for better or worse, but I personally can't make any comments on its quality.

I'm looking at the second edition set, and from reading the rules, I didn't really get a WWI vibe. I've got ideas to change the production/build phase anyway so this might not be a cause for concern.

What's in the WK sale? If it's 2nd edition, I think you need to have at least 4 of the expansion maps and 10 or so boosters to really get the most out of it. I have about that much (I think I have 12 boosters, actually) and it seems to be about right. Less than that and you're not really going to have decent armies for all sides.

I like WK. If you like Columbia Games' system, you'll probably like it well enough because it's pretty much their standard racket (well, at least the hex-based variant of their racket). The magic is pretty limited but it adds some fun and the terrain is a tremendous factor in the game. The game is only as good as the scenarios you're playing though- the system is really simple and it kind of falls on the scenario designer to transcend the generic feel of the rules. It's fun though, and I like that it can support a big group. It's definitely a different feel from HOTS or CRUSADER REX and GREYHAWK WARS probably isn't too far off base.

The sale is $99 for the base game and 10 expansions. Not a bad deal. I really like the two Columbia games I've played so far (putting in an order for War of 1812, looks easy enough for relatives), and have some ideas for scenarios I'd really like to try out. I'd like to implement random event cards like Bloodbowl or the Jerry Taylor games. Wandering monster, lairs that units can raid and pull eof the item blocks if they defeat the creature, hiring bandits, etc.

For the record, I've started three RTL campaigns and finished none. I know a couple of other people who've started them and haven't finished them either. The Legendary Will Kenyon almost finished one, I think they got to gold level last weekend. I think that there's almost too much commitment required given the game's actual depth and level of detail.

If folks that are getting in a regular game meetings aren't finish RtL campaigns, what hope do we have? This is a big concern.

As for Wizard Kings, that's a game I've been interested in for a while myself. I'm not sure how it would work with 5-6 players though. I think it's usually a 2 player or even a 3-4 player type game.

Yeah, I was thinking a number of different ways for large groups. Either playing face up (lose the fog of war), two sides (good vs evil or something), or taking a cue from Samurai Swords with each side having three campaigning armies that are recorded on a side board, with a token representing them on a map.

I think I'm leaning towards Wizard Kings, and though Siege of the Citadel is a great game, I played it out with buddies in high school. Sorry I didn't mention it, but looking for a new experience.

I haven't played 2nd ed WK, but I didn't care for the 1st edition. It didn't feel very balanced (Undead especially) and I didn't find its fantasy theme to be all that strong. You also have to trust your opponents as it's very easy to cheat as I sadly discovered.

I don't have either, but do have a suggestion- if you decide to go with Descent, just buy the base game at first. Find out if you and your friends like it enough to play a regular game before spending the money on RtL so you can play a whole campaign.