Ogre...Kickstarter...you in?

All concerns aside...It's 13lbs of Ogre. That's awesome!

wolvendancer wrote: 3. Marked-up product? Another complete falsehood. The general 'rule' is that you must undercut your pricing for Kickstarter, a rule SSG might be breaking.

I suspect that SJG (and others as I've seen a few other products that seemed to be priced right around what their MSRP would be) would make the case that the Kickstarter-only stuff would covers that 15% [the T-shirt and at least 1 countersheet--and I think someone backed one of the 4-digit levels for a complete custom sheet, which could be very cool depending on who the backer is; there are some serious Ogre/GEV enthusiasts who have been pumping out unofficial units that are within the "rules" (the point system) for quite a while. There could be some cool stuff coming out of that].

But, I'm curious now: is that a real Terms of Service rule or just a basic "how to generate interest" rule of thumb? To throw an "anti-kickstarter" comment out there, considering they take 5% off the top, I seriously doubt KS is going to push back real hard with a strict TOS interpretation on a project on its way to being a Top 10 all-time money-raiser. Not a lot of incentive there, particularly with a well-established company like SJG as there's little question that this project *will* get produced.

Dogmatix wrote: .
But, I'm curious now: is that a real Terms of Service rule or just a basic "how to generate interest" rule of thumb?

Very much the latter - sorry if that wasn't clear. The pervading rule-of-thumb has been that, in cases where it's clear that people are preordering and not 'patronizing', it's only fair to discount the product for those kind enough to give the creators their money beforehand. In every instance where I've contributed money to projects, that's been the case.

If SJG isn't doing that (and I think they are charging full price), I think it's a fair thing to criticize, and no, the bonuses granted do not (in my mind) make charging full price acceptable. It's given me enough pause not to support the Ogre project, as much as I like the game. Also, giving backers exclusive content has generally been received very poorly: the Zombie kickstarter tried to do that (exclusive content to certain tiers of supporter) but quickly backpeddled, and Shadowrun looks to have made the same mistake today (and I predict the outcome will be the same). Please note that it's the people who would have recieved the additional exclusive content that are objecting. As much as asshats want to be cynical about KS, it really is something different.

So, in my mind, it's fair to criticize the Ogre KS (and the people supporting) on a number of levels. I think it's also fair to ask if the cool thing that Kickstarter currently is might be vulnerable to co-option by bigger companies looking for cost-free market research and interest-free starting capital. But, at the moment, it's disingenuous to criticize KS as a whole for these missteps.

wolvendancer wrote: When's the last time we had a turn-based Western RPG hit the market? Now, we have three million-dollar prjects ramping up.

Can you please provide a link or the name of this project? I presume you are talking about a video game here, and I would be interested in taking a look at this. (Though we will be getting the balls-out awesome Firaxis x-com game later this year).

I guess the point is the OGRE and the Queen titles would get published even if KickStarter didn't exist, so there's no particular benefit to the consumer in those cases. SJG is using KickStarter to shift their business risk to the consumer. I have no particular problem with that, except that it's not radical enough. If a game publisher is going to crowd-source business financing, why not crowd-source game design and development, too? That way, the consumer would at least get some benefit out of the deal.

I see it working like this: enough of a game is made available that potential supporters can read the rules and maybe print enough components to make a prototype. These potential supporters will offer feedback and identify possible problems (poorly written rules, Halifax Hammers), before the game goes to print. The result, hopefully, is new games that wouldn't otherwise exist, and that are of a higher quality than the amateur and broken designs that currently litter KickStarter.

El Cuajinais wrote:

wolvendancer wrote: When's the last time we had a turn-based Western RPG hit the market? Now, we have three million-dollar prjects ramping up.

Can you please provide a link or the name of this project? I presume you are talking about a video game here, and I would be interested in taking a look at this. (Though we will be getting the balls-out awesome Firaxis x-com game later this year).

Wasteland 2
Shadowrun
Tortured Hearts
Banner Saga

...are all oldskoool turn-based WRPGs. Just search the names on Kickstarter.

wolvendancer wrote: When's the last time we had a turn-based Western RPG hit the market? Now, we have three million-dollar prjects ramping up.

They're not million-dollar projects, but there are indie turn-based WRPGs. Most are bad, but Spiderweb Software has been making good ones for years. They even have their latest two on iOS. And Age of Decadence --which is going to be super hardcore--should be released in about a year.

wolvendancer wrote: Please note that it's the people who would have recieved the additional exclusive content that are objecting. As much as asshats want to be cynical about KS, it really is something different.

Yea, I'm not one of those types. I'm of the "if you want my money up front, a bribe is in order" crowd. There *is* going to have to be some sort of reward for putting my money at risk that *isn't* going to go to the risk-averse crowd. Being a fan of the Grateful Dead doesn't mean I sprinkle my whole world in fairy dust.

Dogmatix wrote:
" I think they've simply given up the ghost in terms of weight concerns with Ogre. That box is oing to be the size of Risk: Onyx and the weight of a small dog no matter what. I feel bad for international buyers on this one as it's going to be just brutal to ship no matter how you slice it."
★ whimper ★

wolvendancer wrote:
" Think a People's Patronage System."
If only bloody HMR&Customs saw it that way.

Juniper wrote:
" If a game publisher is going to crowd-source business financing, why not crowd-source game design and development, too? ... I see it working like this: enough of a game is made available that potential supporters can read the rules and maybe print enough components to make a prototype. These potential supporters will offer feedback and identify possible problems (poorly written rules, Halifax Hammers), before the game goes to print."
Someone tried that. Unfortunately it didn't succeed (I think the updates show why: lack of focus).

Not to derail what was to be another inevitable Kickstarter debate, but why should I care about this? I hadn't even heard of Ogre until this thread, and it looks like an old war game with big ass tanks developed by a Steve Jackson who I've never thought much of (his games or his RPGs). Yet some of you guys are jumping in line like it's the second coming. What am I missing?