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It's time to talk about *playing* Gloomhaven

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17 Jun 2018 19:43 - 17 Jun 2018 19:47 #275644 by ubarose
"Gloomhaven is a game of Euro-inspired tactical combat"

So it's cooperative dudes on a grid, with a legacy thing going on, but without dice and an AI. It's essentially Euro-style Decent. I found it grindy and tedious. My friends who only play Euros found it quite interesting, exciting and new, because they have never played a dungeon crawl or a dudes on a grid game before. My friends who play mostly Ameritrash and RPGs, didn't care for it, and were rather disappointed by it.
Last edit: 17 Jun 2018 19:47 by ubarose.
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17 Jun 2018 20:07 #275645 by Scott_F
I owned Gloomhaven and was possessed by the game for about 3-4 months when it initially came out and I found it at a local store during the first kickstarter. I played through the game about 1.5 times and did a handful of the random bonus scenarios that I randomly drew through road events or city events. 3 characters, all solo, and ran the game for two groups of friends for 1-2 games each. Otherwise I was all solo. For the second playthrough I picked new characters and increased the solo difficulty a level and created my own generic retirement event, either X gold, level X, or kill X elites. I loved the game and hated the setup/teardown. At some point I became tired of all the effort of running it solo and packed it up. Since then about a year passed and I played it twice, both times with 2 different friends. It was still good but I don't want to play through the campaign again, even if it wasn't solo. I'd be willing to play it with friends but I don't want to run the game and be in charge of setup.

I understand the euro puzzle comment but I really fucking hate both those styles of games so I don't think that is totally accurate. It is a tactical combat game without dice. I've never played a dungeon crawler of any type before Gloomhaven, but the idea of rolling dice constantly every fight is not appealing to me. I want more control over the outcome of the fight then just dice and modifiers. The leveling up choice between which new card to add to your deck and which one to remove from your deck is great. My party had a total wipe maybe half a dozen times throughout the entire campaign. I didn't mind restarting the scenario. Restarting twice though...not cool.

Yes it does help quite a bit if you can leave the game setup in a spare room. Often I would finish the scenario, setup the next one and try to cover what was behind the closed doors with the rulebook, and then play the scenario when I got home from work the next day.

Then I sold the game and was happy I didn't own it and have the responsibility of running it for friends that randomly want to try a scenario.

Those fucking slimes can go to hell.
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17 Jun 2018 21:48 #275650 by Shellhead
It sounds like Gloomhaven is basically the Pathfinder deckbuilder game plus a tactical map. Were there cool extra boards as stretch goals? The boards that I have seen pictures of looked very basic.

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17 Jun 2018 22:25 #275653 by ubarose

Shellhead wrote: It sounds like Gloomhaven is basically the Pathfinder deckbuilder game plus a tactical map. Were there cool extra boards as stretch goals? The boards that I have seen pictures of looked very basic.


Yeah kind of. I kept feeling like the card play felt familiar. I might have been remembering Pathfinder. Except, you pre-program which cards you are going to play for a round of battle, like robo-rally. You arent supposed to talk with your fellow players about what cards you are going to play. So by the time it gets to you, everything might have moved around so much, that the cards you picked are now totally weak sauce. A couple of the dudes I played with were hard leaning Ameritrashers/RPG players. We really hated the no talking part, because what we enjoy most about these kinds of games is the group problem-solving. That social aspect is totally missing from the game.

It's also interesting that of the people I know that do like the game, most have/are playing it solo or as a couple. I could see how it would be a very different experience playing solo, and way less chaotic with only two players. The dude that was running our game (but not playing) was super enthused about it. When we four decided to quit after clearing the first room, he was really surprised by how much we hated it, because he felt it was such a great game. But then he admitted that he had only ever played it solo.
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18 Jun 2018 09:02 #275671 by charlest
What I really love about Gloomhaven:

-AI decks for enemy (similar to Gears of War)

-Each class is wildly different, not like Descent or HeroQuest, more like Cthulhu Wars factions

-The way it gives a defined arc to your character and has you experience the story through generational play with retired characters

-The legacy aspect gives permanence which cements choice and pushes to keep playing

-The central systems in the dungeon crawl feature some nice tension in hand management as well as pushing your luck

-There is a great deal of synergy between classes and card play, it rewards sophisticated maneuvers and clever planning

-It's diceless but it's high drama with auto misses, 2X damage, and things in between.


What I don't like about Gloomhaven

-It can be grindy

-The story is good, but not fantastic or especially gripping

-Dungeons can go a little long at times

-Dungeons can feel a bit repetitive as you're mostly doing the same thing of killing everyone

-Failure is necessary but it's dull as you just replay the dungeon

-I wish you could solo it with a single character

-The system breaks down a bit in some of the very huge scenarios where you're running with multiple AI allies and a ton of enemies. This is only seen in a couple of scenarios so it's not a big deal.

-It can get messy from a legacy standpoint over time as well. You have stickers everywhere and you need to reference which scenarios you've completed and which you haven't. Again, not a big deal but a little bit of a pain.
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18 Jun 2018 09:12 #275672 by Shellhead

ubarose wrote:

Shellhead wrote: It sounds like Gloomhaven is basically the Pathfinder deckbuilder game plus a tactical map. Were there cool extra boards as stretch goals? The boards that I have seen pictures of looked very basic.


Yeah kind of. I kept feeling like the card play felt familiar. I might have been remembering Pathfinder. Except, you pre-program which cards you are going to play for a round of battle, like robo-rally. You arent supposed to talk with your fellow players about what cards you are going to play. So by the time it gets to you, everything might have moved around so much, that the cards you picked are now totally weak sauce. A couple of the dudes I played with were hard leaning Ameritrashers/RPG players. We really hated the no talking part, because what we enjoy most about these kinds of games is the group problem-solving. That social aspect is totally missing from the game.

It's also interesting that of the people I know that do like the game, most have/are playing it solo or as a couple. I could see how it would be a very different experience playing solo, and way less chaotic with only two players. The dude that was running our game (but not playing) was super enthused about it. When we four decided to quit after clearing the first room, he was really surprised by how much we hated it, because he felt it was such a great game. But then he admitted that he had only ever played it solo.


So, a deckbuiler like Pathfinder with action selection and resolution like Death Angel, only with two actions per round per character? I disliked Pathfinder but Death Angel is great. I think Death Angel did a nice job of keeping the co-op play intact but challenging with the occasional event that only one player could resolve, without any input from the rest of the table. As I learned from a specific scenario in Silver Tower, forcing even one player to remain silent in a co-op really cuts into the fun. Making the whole table silent during every combat seems like downright fun murdering, and makes the game a lot harder than solo play.

I like the idea of the AI decks, but hate that all the enemies play the same except the slimes. That could be tolerable in a normal length game, but sounds unbearable for a big campaign game, especially when people mention the grind factor. Maybe the huge box of content was premature, and the designers might have come up with more variety in opposition later.

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18 Jun 2018 11:12 #275678 by Sagrilarus
A question (I haven't played) -- do you stay silent, or do you just not talk about what cards you're playing? Are you allowed to say "I'll cover that guy over there" or is that verboten as well?

Is anybody using deckbuilding as part of an AI opponent's response? It seems to me that in a game like this it would be a natural fit. (Again, I haven't played, just surmising how the game is played by what I've read recently.)

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18 Jun 2018 11:18 - 18 Jun 2018 11:19 #275679 by ubarose

Shellhead wrote:

ubarose wrote:

Shellhead wrote: It sounds like Gloomhaven is basically the Pathfinder deckbuilder game plus a tactical map. Were there cool extra boards as stretch goals? The boards that I have seen pictures of looked very basic.


Yeah kind of. I kept feeling like the card play felt familiar. I might have been remembering Pathfinder. Except, you pre-program which cards you are going to play for a round of battle, like robo-rally. You arent supposed to talk with your fellow players about what cards you are going to play. So by the time it gets to you, everything might have moved around so much, that the cards you picked are now totally weak sauce. A couple of the dudes I played with were hard leaning Ameritrashers/RPG players. We really hated the no talking part, because what we enjoy most about these kinds of games is the group problem-solving. That social aspect is totally missing from the game.

It's also interesting that of the people I know that do like the game, most have/are playing it solo or as a couple. I could see how it would be a very different experience playing solo, and way less chaotic with only two players. The dude that was running our game (but not playing) was super enthused about it. When we four decided to quit after clearing the first room, he was really surprised by how much we hated it, because he felt it was such a great game. But then he admitted that he had only ever played it solo.


So, a deckbuiler like Pathfinder with action selection and resolution like Death Angel, only with two actions per round per character? I disliked Pathfinder but Death Angel is great. I think Death Angel did a nice job of keeping the co-op play intact but challenging with the occasional event that only one player could resolve, without any input from the rest of the table. As I learned from a specific scenario in Silver Tower, forcing even one player to remain silent in a co-op really cuts into the fun. Making the whole table silent during every combat seems like downright fun murdering, and makes the game a lot harder than solo play.

I like the idea of the AI decks, but hate that all the enemies play the same except the slimes. That could be tolerable in a normal length game, but sounds unbearable for a big campaign game, especially when people mention the grind factor. Maybe the huge box of content was premature, and the designers might have come up with more variety in opposition later.


I don't quite follow what you are describing. I don't know how much you know about the game, so excuse me if the following is really boring.

You have a hand of cards. Each card has a top action and bottom action. The actions are essentially move or attack. There is some character specificness to these - range, move and attack combos, cast spells, heal, support actions, etc. The top action is typically really good - like punch a dude for a lot of damage, or move a lot spaces. And a bottom is a basic action - like slap a dude for a tiny amount of damage, or move one space.

At the beginning of the round you secretly pick two cards and play them face down. Then in turn order, each party member and monster takes their turn. On your turn you have to play a top action from one card and a bottom action from another. Then you discard those cards. If you go early in the round, you can probably do what you planned on doing. If you go late in the round, which if there are 4 party members and several monsters on the board, could be very late in the round (and remember, you don't know what your party members are planning on doing) you could end up doing not much at all because the positions of every thing have changes. So it has kind of that robo-rally thing happening - but way less funny.

Choosing cards, somewhat blindly; deciding what to do on your turn if you can't do what you planned; interweaving monster turns with the hero turns; dealing with the AI of those monster turns; pulling chits out of a bag...then once you finally clear a room doing it all over again...it just felt slow and grindy and repetitive to me. But I also don't like Descent either, because it feels repetitive. Although Descent does move along a lot faster.
Last edit: 18 Jun 2018 11:19 by ubarose.
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18 Jun 2018 12:10 - 18 Jun 2018 12:17 #275684 by Frohike
Uba, I think your host might have been a bit hardcore about the "no talking" aspect, which would definitely put a dent in the social experience.

You're not forbidden from talking about what actions you're going to take.

You just can't explicitly say which card you're playing and cannot discuss specific Initiative numbers. You can say that you're going to punch the dude 2 hexes away, probably late in the Initiative order, and lay down a Fire element on the battlefield. If you do collectively choose to game the Initiative numbers and discuss your hand of cards as open information, you have to increase the difficulty (my recommendation to most people here: don't do this or you will increase the factors that most find unappealing: AP, quarterbacking, Euro-strategize for two hours to take down a room of cannon fodder).
Last edit: 18 Jun 2018 12:17 by Frohike.
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18 Jun 2018 12:30 #275685 by Shellhead
Co-op play works better with dice, imo, because the best-laid plans are never a sure thing. Co-op with euro mechanics needs to put artificial constraints on the players to prevent long committee decisions resulting in efficient problem-solving.
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18 Jun 2018 12:33 #275686 by charlest

Shellhead wrote: Co-op play works better with dice, imo, because the best-laid plans are never a sure thing. Co-op with euro mechanics needs to put artificial constraints on the players to prevent long committee decisions resulting in efficient problem-solving.


The deck of cards dictating your result for resolution is functionally similar to dice. The big reason this is included is because you deckbuild the resolution decks over time (as well as place temporary cards in them such as curses and blessings).
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18 Jun 2018 12:51 #275689 by Frohike

charlest wrote:

Shellhead wrote: Co-op play works better with dice, imo, because the best-laid plans are never a sure thing. Co-op with euro mechanics needs to put artificial constraints on the players to prevent long committee decisions resulting in efficient problem-solving.


The deck of cards dictating your result for resolution is functionally similar to dice. The big reason this is included is because you deckbuild the resolution decks over time (as well as place temporary cards in them such as curses and blessings).


It's like having a mutable die with more granular control (for the designer/developer) over success percentages & add-on effects based on status effects, special abilities, etc. It's actually one of the more clever aspects of the design, in my opinion.
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18 Jun 2018 14:59 #275707 by Erik Twice

Frohike wrote: You just can't explicitly say which card you're playing and cannot discuss specific Initiative numbers. You can say that you're going to punch the dude 2 hexes away, probably late in the Initiative order, and lay down a Fire element on the battlefield. If you do collectively choose to game the Initiative numbers and discuss your hand of cards as open information, you have to increase the difficulty (my recommendation to most people here: don't do this or you will increase the factors that most find unappealing: AP, quarterbacking, Euro-strategize for two hours to take down a room of cannon fodder).

One issue I've found, specially with the Spellweaver is that being vague is often as good as explicitely saying the number. That is, if I say "I'm going very fast", everyone knows I'm going to play my 07 initiative Lighting Bolt because it's either that, or my 20s (fast, but not very fast). If I say "slow" everyone knows I'm playing in the 60-80 range and can't be counted on.

It's not critical, though. I think the rule is just there so the game doesn't bog down in unnecessary optimization.
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18 Jun 2018 15:31 - 18 Jun 2018 17:04 #275711 by Shellhead
Replied by Shellhead on topic Gloomhaven
I recently played Dark Souls: the Card Game, and that seems be a ripoff of Gloomhaven. It's a co-op deckbuilder about fighting monsters and gaining loot. The monsters fight based on card-driven AI. Instead of tactical movement on a hex board, there is some limited tactical movement within a 2x3 grid for the heroes which is adjacent to similar 2x3 grid for the monsters. However, action selection isn't programmed and players are allowed to communicate freely. At least once every three turns, my character couldn't do much with my current hand of cards.
Last edit: 18 Jun 2018 17:04 by ChristopherMD.

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18 Jun 2018 17:02 - 18 Jun 2018 17:04 #275716 by Jexik
Replied by Jexik on topic Gloomhaven
But you can't talk about it, because

Warning: Spoiler!
Last edit: 18 Jun 2018 17:04 by ChristopherMD.

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