There are too many Dungeon Crawlers. There are too few Dungeon Crawlers.

Jackwraith wrote:

Mr. White wrote: Just scouted eBay and the FFG Revisted edition of DQ is going for more than the GW original? What?
Is it that good?

No. It's awful and stupid just like the original DQ.

Turn 1: You find a pit. Have to turn back.
Turn 2: A spear trap launches and kills you.
...

The price for the FFG reprint is probably because it includes characters that could be used in Descent (both eds), Runebound, and Runewars. Completists for those are probably seeking it out. Also, the production value is FFG's normal approach, which is quite a bit better to a lot of modern eyes than 1987 GW.

It's my favorite "push-your-luck" game and no other game gives me the opportunity to keep a diary of death. It's awesome!

GorillaGrody wrote: I think the idea of how loot gets handled is microcosmic of problems with the whole genre. I don’t think I’ve ever received a little loot card that got me excited about what it did.

Then maybe you haven't played enough of them? The vast majority of 'crawlers I've played had the loot issue. Sometimes it was just leather armor, but that was a bonus, no matter how you looked at it. Sometimes it was the Grinding Axe that instantly made every monster that the Overlord could throw at you nothing but a minor delay. Hell, Talisman had the loot problem, at times, and it's technically not a dungeon crawler. If you landed the Runesword, you were almost guaranteed to win the game unless you a) had horrible dice or b) someone plucked it off you with a method other than combat or c) someone was already so far ahead that they were going to make it through the top level before you could get there.

GorillaGrody wrote: The Others came from CMON, and I just plain skip stuff from CMON now. This is the first I’ve heard of it being good. It sounds complicated.

YMMV. I tend to follow designers these days and The Others is Eric Lang (Blood Rage, Chaos in the Old World) and I think this one is also worthwhile. It is tactically complex, but that's usually an upside to me.

ChristopherMD wrote: Holy FUCK!

Standard (non-painted minis) $79.99 MSRP
Premium (only difference is painted minis) $159.99 MSRP

The retail price of Dungeons & Dragons: Tomb of Annihilation Adventure System Board Game was the same. The street price will be much lower. For example, the price on Amazon for Tomb of Annihilation is $56.58 shipped on Prime.

It’s tough / impossible to find a dungeon crawl that ticks all of a given person’s boxes. And for my money, if there isn’t loot, it’s not a dungeon crawl.

stoic wrote: It's my favorite "push-your-luck" game and no other game gives me the opportunity to keep a diary of death. It's awesome!

Like The Bard said: As you like it. I've just never been a fan, despite strenuous encouragement from Da Bid Dabid. But I tend to agree with hotseat, as well. If you're playing a dungeon crawler, you usually need loot. Space Hulk happens to be an exception to that. Hoping TMNT is, as well.

hotseatgames wrote: It’s tough / impossible to find a dungeon crawl that ticks all of a given person’s boxes. And for my money, if there isn’t loot, it’s not a dungeon crawl.

Space Hulk has goals, singular goals, some of which are a grail-sized loot item. It also features 1 hit point per figure.

This may be a distinguishing feature of games I’m grasping toward favoring. Whenever loot pops out of a goblin’s carcass, it means the game is giving you something you need to progress: a plus one added to your other plus ones that will help you kill a plus 10 dragon down the line. If that’s fun, it’s because grinding towards a steady progression is fun. It means you can start shaving off the hit points of the bigger monsters like grating a block of Parmesan cheese.

I don’t think grinding is fun. In the classic literature I like, there are grails to be won or rings to be tossed, a few Galadriels with special, clutch gifts bestowed ceremoniously.

In Massive Darkness, by contrast, everything just shits out mass quantities of loot. Nothing is special.

You know what game probably does Loot the best?

Dungeon!

There isn’t much. I think there is like what, five items:

+1 Sword
+2 Sword
Secret door thing
Crystal ball to see an encounter anywhere
ESP Medallion to see an encounter before you do it

It seems like they barely do anything...but that +1/+2 can make a difference and the other cards can save you A LOT of time in a game that essentially a race. They aren’t super narrative, but they fit in correctly with the scope of the game and they are impactful. More importantly, you are never managing a tableau of effects and objects. Which is one of the places so many DCs go wrong.

I really like in Gloomhaven that you can’t take in a giant pile of items and that many are one shots.

What about the way exp and loot is handled in Silver Tower?

A selection of skill options to tweak the way the hero plays for that singular adventure.

nothing carrying over. no grinding and stacking for an end boss.

it's sort of like mid-game character creation.

It's a difficult genre for me because it doesn't exist. What manner of place have rooms after rooms, filled with deadly treasures not used by its occupants? How come a game about guys swing swords wildly in cramped rooms become a calculative resource management? Why dungeons have branches when it's almost always a bad idea to split your party?

So it all comes down to your own perspective of the genre.

Sevej wrote: It's a difficult genre for me because it doesn't exist. What manner of place have rooms after rooms, filled with deadly treasures not used by its occupants? How come a game about guys swing swords wildly in cramped rooms become a calculative resource management? Why dungeons have branches when it's almost always a bad idea to split your party?

So it all comes down to your own perspective of the genre.

Higher levels characters who were once adventurers make dungeons because they're retired with too much time and money. Some Wizards need places to work on their spells and experiments that may not go over well in town. As well as secure their rare spellbook collections. Fighters or Thieves who have amassed dragons hoards-worth of treasure need to keep it somewhere. They want you to split up and fall into traps and die so you don't steal their shit. Then eventually these people die or go mad and the dungeons are left unattended for years while an eco-system of creatures able to live there develops.

The best part is that this entire biosphere/community of various monsters, animals, spirits, whatever all just kind of hang out there and wait for heroes to come and try to rob them. Or flip some switch.

“Wahhh, Eurogames are so abstract!”

(sorry was in packed bus, standing during my commute)

Haha, yeah! But really, when it comes to crawler I'm not trying to justify these things. But when it's about other games, you can rely on real world principals to help you making it. But with crawlers, the designers make whatever they want.

And with me, as I go deep and deeper, a lot of things are just... contradictory.

I want a simple AI system capable of creating interesting puzzle, but please give me a group of enemy consisted of various warrior types that work together.

I want a memorable campaign, but please make it finish-able! Having a campaign running is great, but finishing it is... priceless!

I want loot, I want skill progression, but I don't want entering one dungeon a meek and coming out a hero, because I also want a campaign! Also, I want interesting loot and skill, through a campaign, but I don't want +1 shits! That's extremely challenging to make!

I think hit points are shit, but they're the most fair system so far. Having 1 hit point enemies mean when you miss two or three times in a row, you're going to feel it! Now, if you're to deal at least a few amounts of damage, you at least don't waste turns. ut that's gamey, so I don't know!

My big problem with dungeon crawlers is one of pacing. Most of them feel too sluggish to me. Part of that is because I am not a huge fan of the tactical elements, and the slug fest of chipping away at HP is not that interesting to me. Space Hulk does it best, with its lack of hit points altogether.

Another problem is that dungeon crawls struggle to do anything besides combat in a compelling way. That said my experience is hardly exhaustive.

My opinion on the genre has improved since I started playing D&D more. That's really where the genre is at its best. Having a referee there lets the players experience surprise, and lets someone adjust the pacing as necessary. Dungeons function better when they are allowed to be adjusted on the fly.

Mr. White wrote: What about the way exp and loot is handled in Silver Tower?

A selection of skill options to tweak the way the hero plays for that singular adventure.

nothing carrying over. no grinding and stacking for an end boss.

it's sort of like mid-game character creation.

That's why I hope that the new co-op mode (with AI cards) for Siege of the Citadel 2nd Edition works well, because that's pretty much how SotC works. In SotC you accumulate credits as you level up but they aren't spent, it's more like they represent your team's "credit line" that dictates what weapons and equipment you can afford to take on a mission. Players then take turns drafting weapons and equipment for their teams and that's where you can customize your loadout for the mission at hand.

Since the only things that change at higher ranks are the strength of your dice and the amount of credits at your disposal, it's relatively simple to set your teams at a higher level and play a one-off where you don't have to putter around with the crappy Rank 1 equipment.

The XP tracking (sorry, "Promotion Points") is super simple (1 XP = 1 wound dealt) and you end up with a casual dungeon crawler that is one of the few that I'd get out for any group.

Old basic D&D is still the best dungeon crawler ever made.