The Lord of the Rings: Journeys in Middle-earth

Reward for the dumbest argument on the internet this week goes to......

I've been critical of games that use apps in a fundamental manner, and the response by apologists and CP was: "no game lasts forever". *

It felt like when someone asked if the mobile version of Diablo was an April fool's joke, and then being asked in return: "Don't you all have phones?".

The point travels like a 747 over their head.

I don't mind apps as a cool, non-integral companion.

These hybrid analogue/digital game experiments keep failing. Ex Illis, golem arcana, etc.

In five years, will the Descent app still be available to use?

I bought the spawnling a drone from airhogs, that uses a digital tutor and steering device via a tablet app. It came out two years ago, and already it's garbage since no device can use the app to control it.

Not convinced that such a strategy is anything more than a flash in the pan attempt at a cash grab.

*Tell that bullshit to Senet.

It is a stupid argument because it’s one of those things Jeff does about once every 4-5 months where he sits there at his computer and just starts fuming about me for whatever reason so he tries to pick a fight with snarky posts.

To ground it somewhere other than personal grudges...the disappointment here is that you’ve got a company struggling to remain relevant against corporate ownership and the fact that almost nothing they do is unique or progressive anymore, Keyforge notwithstanding. It’s a company that has always had a problem with redundant, cannibalistic products even when they have released best-in-class titles. They just put out a flashpoint, innovative game (Keyforge) and they follow it up with...a fantasy co-op game. Set in Middle-Earth. With an app. Why not set it in the Keyforge setting to strengthen that brand and open up some new opportunities instead of putting out a title with an oversaturated setting with an oversaturated format? I mean, hell, they could have put out the FIRST EVER Star Wars adventure game over this!

Let’s contrast the last three major Warhammer releases. Kill Team was a completely new format. Black Fortress is the first 40k-set dungeoncrawl since...well, it depends on how you classify Space Hulk. Black Reach is the first chits-on-a-map, squad level war game in the Warhammer setting. You’d have to go all the way back, nearly 30 years, to stuff like Battle for Armageddon and Doom of the Eldar to find anything close.

But LOTR- FFS, they currently publish a very popular, very well supported LOTR co op game! And they just put out Hunt for the Ring less than a year ago!

I'm not particularly excited by another LOTR product. That said, I think there is a place for phone apps in board games, albeit a fairly limited place. I think Alchemists works really well with its app that helps to determine how one game varies from the last and the next.

OTOH, I found Knizia's LOTR game to be fairly boring in typical Knizia fashion. The game itself could have carried any theme; the fact that it was LOTR was no more relevant than T&E being set in ancient Babylon. Also, I always found the exhaustively-detailed Middle-Earth setting to be precisely the wrong vehicle for abstraction. Almost any LOTR board game would inevitably pale in the face of the setting, which is why I thought Middle-Earth Quest would have been a great game, except for the fact that I couldn't find anyone to play it with. MEQ and the Knizia game are two ends of the same spectrum; one is too detailed and overburdened to find players willing to spend that kind of time and the other is too stripped down to hold players' interest for repeated plays.

To MB's point, GW's properties haven't suffered that kind of polarity, for the most part. I'm still interested in playing Space Hulk, Chaos in the Old World, Blood Bowl: Team Manager, and WH Diskwars on a regular basis and would probably still be interested in playing Doom of the Eldar and Battle for Armageddon, if I still owned them. The only LOTR game I can say that about is War of the Ring, which is why I may take a look at Journeys in Middle-Earth, but I don't find myself excited about it, at the moment.

I would also have probably been more interested in seeing that type of game set in a new or relatively unexplored place (Keyforge, Blue Moon, etc.) But it's possible that Journeys is a licensing move, in that FFG may be required to exercise the license with X releases over a period of time while they hold it. GW had those hurdles while they held the license for their minis game and it eventually cost them because the game, while mechanically interesting, suffered from the relatively non-exotic nature of the setting (i.e. lack of interesting units; tough to get people excited about a fifth different version of "Southron invader.") Tough to tell.

Michael Barnes wrote: It is a stupid argument because it’s one of those things Jeff does about once every 4-5 months where he sits there at his computer and just starts fuming about me for whatever reason so he tries to pick a fight with snarky posts.

To ground it somewhere other than personal grudges...the disappointment here is that you’ve got a company struggling to remain relevant against corporate ownership and the fact that almost nothing they do is unique or progressive anymore, Keyforge notwithstanding. It’s a company that has always had a problem with redundant, cannibalistic products even when they have released best-in-class titles. They just put out a flashpoint, innovative game (Keyforge) and they follow it up with...a fantasy co-op game. Set in Middle-Earth. With an app. Why not set it in the Keyforge setting to strengthen that brand and open up some new opportunities instead of putting out a title with an oversaturated setting with an oversaturated format? I mean, hell, they could have put out the FIRST EVER Star Wars adventure game over this!

Let’s contrast the last three major Warhammer releases. Kill Team was a completely new format. Black Fortress is the first 40k-set dungeoncrawl since...well, it depends on how you classify Space Hulk. Black Reach is the first chits-on-a-map, squad level war game in the Warhammer setting. You’d have to go all the way back, nearly 30 years, to stuff like Battle for Armageddon and Doom of the Eldar to find anything close.

But LOTR- FFS, they currently publish a very popular, very well supported LOTR co op game! And they just put out Hunt for the Ring less than a year ago!

My response was in no way snarkier than your initial comment, an off hand blast at the game based on the setting. Just because I'm far from your biggest fan doesn't mean that my criticisms of your points or opinions are without merit or a point. Just because I'm one of the only ones who will openly challenge your opinions don't think there aren't others on this site who don't think the same things I do.

You're initial post was a slam based on it being a co-op, fantasy based, and set in Middle Earth. The implication being that the game is somehow less worthwhile because it is based in a setting you feel overused.

I point out that this opinion is entirely arbitrary based on nothing more than current fashion. The Warhammer setting is as overused as anything but for whatever reason it's in fashion around here at the moment. That was the point of my off hand response to your off hand comment.

The games you cite seem to be to be variations of the same thing. Perhaps implemented differently but basically the same type of game. Killteam is a miniatures game about tactical combat. Black Reach is a miniatures game about tactical combat (except the miniatures are cardboard tokens). Space Hulk is a miniatures game about tactical combat. They may be variations but their heart is all the same. So the attempt to paint them as fresh and distinct from each other is a weak one.

So once again, the point I was and AM making is that the critique of this game's setting being overused and trite is one that could also be applied to your current favorite series of games. Plain and simple.

Why would FF produce a game like this in Middle Earth over Keyforge? I should think that would be obvious with a minimum of reflection. They already hold the license to produce a game in a fully developed setting with enormous amounts of "lore" to draw from. Why would they not use that? Keyforge has zero name recognition, the back story can in no way equate to Middle Earth, and in no way would drive sales.

The last game FF put out set in Middle Earth was some forgettable dice game called Journey to Mordor in 2015. Before that it was the LCG which came out in 2011. Hunt for the Ring was released by Ares. So it isn't as if FF has 50 different games in the setting. And even if they have more than one, they are certainly different styles of games.

Appreciate the correction re: Hunt for the Ring.

Also, thanks for the boost, thread wasn’t about me and my opinions until you made it so.

Man, I'm actually excited for this. The combination of adventure, overland travel with zoomed in skirmish encounters is something pretty unique. I've only seen that done in Folklore which was pretty good. This is app driven though so the variance in encounters and AI will probably be much stronger.

I don't think it's fair to say Kill Team is something completely different but this is rehashed. That sounds laughable honestly unless you're incapable of reading between the lines on the press release.

I'm not a fan of the Knizia LotR game, although I do enjoy Confrontation. This may be the first LotR game I own.

I still play Knizia's LotR and will to the day I die. I hope. It's been lying dormant for some time, but about a year and a half ago I started playing it with my kids and it's great. I think we need to play it some more soon.

About the news. Just before I saw the article I was thinking how I'm not really excited about FFG games anymore and haven't really been for a while. Part of that is that it's very much the same IPs, but then I remembered how excited I was about Keyforge. And that I still like the Arkham Horror card game even though I haven't played it for a year. And that Runebound 3rd is a rock solid adventure game. And that Battle For Rokugan gets some really good reviews. So I still think they make good stuff, and this looks pretty decent as well. It seems to mix some of the stuff from Runebound 3rd (which has a really neat character development and skill check system), and at the same time it seems to build on the world building from the card game and from Middle Earth Quest - the latter I never got to play more than once, but it had some stuff going for it.

I'm not excited about it being an app, though. I have some Descent stuff for solo play, but haven't touched it in a long time. But I think this is not just a case of them having the IP and the artwork (even if that is a major factor). It's also a matter, I think, of trying to do something like the card game which is slowly dying. And while I didn't care much for their Fallout game, I think it did something very innovative when it comes to storytelling in game. I'm just not sure I'm that into Middle Earth anymore.

I don't think it's fair to say Kill Team is something completely different but this is rehashed. That sounds laughable honestly unless you're incapable of reading between the lines on the press release

I didn’t say completely different. I said I t’s a new format. New way of playing 40k, new way of collecting it, new way of buying it. Shadow War was sort of a beta for it, but it also didn’t have new products specifically for it like KT does.

I've been wholly unimpressed with every "app-augmented" game I've tried (Mansions of Madness, XCOM, Alchemists, to name a few). I'd love for a game to surprise me and change my mind, but I'm not going to pin such hopes on this game.

Also, from that press release:

Pre-order through our website today to receive these exclusive deluxe Player Mats with your order!

Does FFG normally do this? Are they taking a page from KS and getting into the preorder 'sclusives? When can I expect some metal coins and an oversized first player figurine?

Now I want Mansions of Terrinoth. Thanks Josh.

Games that integrate technology as a necessity are not going to give long-term enjoyment. How many vhs or dvd games does anyone still play?

I think that's a fair point, although given the lack of physical media, I think games that use apps are better placed to be longer lasting. My point about Alchemists above was based on that. Since the entire game is rooted in a puzzle that varies to some ridiculously high number, the chance of encountering the same set of circumstances such as when using a limited form of media (VHS tapes can only be so long, etc.) is vanishingly low. What separates Alchemists from most other puzzle-based games is the potential for varied interaction among players, as well, since you can win by signing on to someone else's theory almost as often as you can by publishing your own. The fact that technology will advance to the point where even our precious phones are obsolete doesn't entirely obviate the game's mechanism, since whatever medium that replaces them (biochips!) will likely be able to adapt whatever app is now used; again, because of the lack of a physical component.

themothman421 wrote: Also, from that press release:

Pre-order through our website today to receive these exclusive deluxe Player Mats with your order!

Does FFG normally do this? Are they taking a page from KS and getting into the preorder 'sclusives? When can I expect some metal coins and an oversized first player figurine?

I think this may be an Asmodee dictat. Plaid Hat has done this too for some of its recent releases like Starship Samurai.

FFG is a business owned by a business that is owned by investors. With Christian Petersen out, the priority has shifted even farther from creativity towards profitability. I'm not especially interested in this new LotR game, but it makes sense that FFG should maximize the money they can make off the license, especially if the license is for a limited number of years. Of course, maximization of revenue isn't simply achieved by constantly churning out new minor variations. But if they can publish a new LotR game once every few years, that might be the sweet spot for milking the license efficiently. And simply reprinting past games with the same license might not be the most cost-effective approach, since the people who already own those games are unlikely to buy them again, though they might go for a similar game.