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Talk to me about space games!
06 Jan 2020 10:29 #305835
by Joebot
I've played Empires of the Void II a couple of times. It's a beautifully produced game and looks amazing. But design-wise, it falls into a weird gap. It seems like it wants to be a cool, feisty 4X game, but in reality, it's way more of a Eurogame. Like a lot of Red Raven Games (many of which I enjoy), all the sharp edges have been sanded off, I suppose to make the game feel less mean. For example, if you lose combat, your ships simply retreat to your nearest occupied planet. Your units are never destroyed. The game does have all the usual trappings that you would expect in a big 4X space game -- exploration, combat, a tech tree, pickup/deliver, etc.
The game has a neat mechanism where ownership of a planet consists of two parallel concepts -- military conquest and alliance (what I tend to think of as "cultural assimilation"). This leads to interesting scenarios where one player might conquer a planet, but another player is allied with the planet's natives. The rewards for each concept are very different, and can lead players down different strategies.
It's an odd game, and I think it would take a couple of plays to really get a handle on it. Unfortunately, the game didn't go over well in my group, so I likely won't ever a chance to do that. I should also mention that setup is a pain in the ass.
Replied by Joebot on topic Talk to me about space games!
n815e wrote: I’ve read that Empires of the Void II is also good, but I haven’t played it. It sort of reminds me a bit of Titan AE, players control worldships and there is pick up/deliver, battling and diplomacy.
I've played Empires of the Void II a couple of times. It's a beautifully produced game and looks amazing. But design-wise, it falls into a weird gap. It seems like it wants to be a cool, feisty 4X game, but in reality, it's way more of a Eurogame. Like a lot of Red Raven Games (many of which I enjoy), all the sharp edges have been sanded off, I suppose to make the game feel less mean. For example, if you lose combat, your ships simply retreat to your nearest occupied planet. Your units are never destroyed. The game does have all the usual trappings that you would expect in a big 4X space game -- exploration, combat, a tech tree, pickup/deliver, etc.
The game has a neat mechanism where ownership of a planet consists of two parallel concepts -- military conquest and alliance (what I tend to think of as "cultural assimilation"). This leads to interesting scenarios where one player might conquer a planet, but another player is allied with the planet's natives. The rewards for each concept are very different, and can lead players down different strategies.
It's an odd game, and I think it would take a couple of plays to really get a handle on it. Unfortunately, the game didn't go over well in my group, so I likely won't ever a chance to do that. I should also mention that setup is a pain in the ass.
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06 Jan 2020 16:58 #305873
by Ah_Pook
I've got Perry Rhodan, it's good!
I really want to try Xia, but I don't know anyone locally who has it or is likely to get it. It looks like it would be great but it's a lot of $$$ to take a chance on.
Outer Rim vs Firefly is kinda where I'm at, and I'm torn. . I think either would be pretty much what I'm looking for, and I don't think I need both. My wife and I both like the Firefly ip more, and i tend to like my adventure games of the older school variety (see Arkham Horror 2e, Talisman 2e) so I'm kinda leaning towards Firefly if I can find a good trade/deal on a big bundle of it.
Replied by Ah_Pook on topic Talk to me about space games!
ubarose wrote: If you are specifically looking for an adventurey space game, I'd recommend Outer Rim. It has encounter cards, like Arkham Horror, but they are tightly managed kind of like 7th Continent, so they are more specific to what you are doing, so they are less random. As someone else said, it is cut from the same cloth as Firefly, but addresses some of Firefly's short comings. It also has rules for solo play.
I love Firefly, but it is long, meandering, chaotic and swingy. Although, if you love Merchant of Venus, that might not bother you.
Xia reminds me a lot of Merchant of Venus, but is tighter and has fighting. It has a strong emphasis on outfitting and customizing your ship. But it didn't feel very "adventury." It's much more a pure pick up and deliver with some exploration.
Eclipse, Twilight Imperium and Star Trek Ascendancy are all really 4X games, and not adventury or pick-up and deliver.
Perry Rhodan: The Cosmic League (Z-Man) is a two player, 30 minute pick up and deliver that was inspired by Merchant of Venus. It isn't at all adventury. It's 100% pick-up & deliver and a little abstract, but might be something you would enjoy. It is out of print, but you can often find it used for $20 or less.
I've got Perry Rhodan, it's good!
I really want to try Xia, but I don't know anyone locally who has it or is likely to get it. It looks like it would be great but it's a lot of $$$ to take a chance on.
Outer Rim vs Firefly is kinda where I'm at, and I'm torn. . I think either would be pretty much what I'm looking for, and I don't think I need both. My wife and I both like the Firefly ip more, and i tend to like my adventure games of the older school variety (see Arkham Horror 2e, Talisman 2e) so I'm kinda leaning towards Firefly if I can find a good trade/deal on a big bundle of it.
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06 Jan 2020 17:14 - 06 Jan 2020 17:15 #305874
by WadeMonnig
Replied by WadeMonnig on topic Talk to me about space games!
I've seen a lot of Firefly up for trade recently, i doubt you'll have a hard time finding a good deal on it.
Last edit: 06 Jan 2020 17:15 by WadeMonnig.
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06 Jan 2020 19:24 - 07 Jan 2020 09:59 #305879
by ubarose
Replied by ubarose on topic Talk to me about space games!
@Ah_Pook
Since you have played Perry Rhodan...
One major difference between Firefly and Outer Rim, is that Firefly has a big map, like Merchants of Venus, so it's pace is much more like MoV - you do a lot of just flying around in space, there is a slow, long build up at the beginning, that middle phase where you finally get things rolling, and that fast race at the end to win. Whereas the map on Outer Rim is linear, like Perry Rhodan, so there is more planet hopping and you can accomplish things more quickly. Also, there is far less build up. You are at what is the mid-game of MoV or FF within a few turns. Also, since it is a track, you really can't avoid other players or the NPC ships.
With both games you will draw encounter cards to complete tasks or missions which will require you to make skill checks. However, with Firefly, you won't know what skill is being checked until you draw the card - so you can be totally boned (on par with being toaded in Talisman). With Outer Rim, your mission card tells you what skills are going to be checked, so you can gear up for them. Failure is less punishing. Also, on Outer Rim you have some form of encounter whenever you end your turn on a planet. In Firefly, you only have encounters when you are choosing to complete a mission.
In FF it is also possible to get toaded when you run into an NPC ship. Outer Rim, again, is less punishing, and in fact you can earn VPs by fighting NPC ships.
Finally, FF is scenario based, so there is some variety to how you play. But, on the other hand, some of the scenarios are not as good as others.
Hope all that helps a bit.
Since you have played Perry Rhodan...
One major difference between Firefly and Outer Rim, is that Firefly has a big map, like Merchants of Venus, so it's pace is much more like MoV - you do a lot of just flying around in space, there is a slow, long build up at the beginning, that middle phase where you finally get things rolling, and that fast race at the end to win. Whereas the map on Outer Rim is linear, like Perry Rhodan, so there is more planet hopping and you can accomplish things more quickly. Also, there is far less build up. You are at what is the mid-game of MoV or FF within a few turns. Also, since it is a track, you really can't avoid other players or the NPC ships.
With both games you will draw encounter cards to complete tasks or missions which will require you to make skill checks. However, with Firefly, you won't know what skill is being checked until you draw the card - so you can be totally boned (on par with being toaded in Talisman). With Outer Rim, your mission card tells you what skills are going to be checked, so you can gear up for them. Failure is less punishing. Also, on Outer Rim you have some form of encounter whenever you end your turn on a planet. In Firefly, you only have encounters when you are choosing to complete a mission.
In FF it is also possible to get toaded when you run into an NPC ship. Outer Rim, again, is less punishing, and in fact you can earn VPs by fighting NPC ships.
Finally, FF is scenario based, so there is some variety to how you play. But, on the other hand, some of the scenarios are not as good as others.
Hope all that helps a bit.
Last edit: 07 Jan 2020 09:59 by ubarose.
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07 Jan 2020 04:48 #305889
by Nodens
The is a SciFi version of the greatest adventure game of all time (called 'Relic', I think) but no idea if it's any good.
Replied by Nodens on topic Talk to me about space games!
Some great suggestions, as always. Haven't played Outer Rim, Firefly or Xia (yet) but do own Perry Rhodan and Space Empires 4x. Both are very good. SE4X is the only game in this thread I would recommend for solo play. I especially like the doomsday machine scenario (=death star approaching). The base game without expansions and Talon is quite streamlined, but as a whole SE4X is VERY focused on combat.Ah_Pook wrote: I'd probably be playing about 50/50 solo/multiplayer, if that matters for recommendation purposes.
The is a SciFi version of the greatest adventure game of all time (called 'Relic', I think) but no idea if it's any good.
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07 Jan 2020 09:08 #305892
by hotseatgames
Replied by hotseatgames on topic Talk to me about space games!
Relic is great, it's the 40k re-skin of Talisman. It does, however, take forever to play.
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07 Jan 2020 10:20 - 07 Jan 2020 10:26 #305893
by Josh Look
Replied by Josh Look on topic Talk to me about space games!
Outer Rim’s solo play is quite good, actually. It uses an AI deck that doesn’t add much in terms of overhead. Firefly has very limited solo options, IIRC there is only 1 solo scenario and it’s really easy. Xia only offers solo play with the expansion, so again, that’s going to set you back $150 USD and it’s HARD. Little bit clunky, too, but that’s kind of Xia as a whole.
Last edit: 07 Jan 2020 10:26 by Josh Look.
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07 Jan 2020 10:21 #305894
by Josh Look
FTFY
Replied by Josh Look on topic Talk to me about space games!
hotseatgames wrote: Relic is great, it's the 40k superior version of Talisman. It does, however, take forever to play.
FTFY
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07 Jan 2020 10:25 #305895
by Ah_Pook
Replied by Ah_Pook on topic Talk to me about space games!
I typically just play multiplayer all sides in MoV and Talisman and whatnot, presumably that would be the move in Firefly or Outer Rim as well. Not that I'm against dedicated solo modes or anything. I do definitely need to get into the solo options for SE4X and Talon, those games are both really fun.
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07 Jan 2020 17:51 - 07 Jan 2020 17:58 #305915
by Josh Look
Replied by Josh Look on topic Talk to me about space games!
So are you likely only going to be playing your multiplayer games with 2? If so, that’s another edge Outer Rim has. Firefly is certainly doable with 2, but it really does need more turns in the game for the AI ships to work as intended, especially with the expansion boards. Outer Rim on the other hand loses nothing when just playing with 2.
If you decide on Firefly, PM me, I might be willing to work something out (though shipping to Canada is going to sting).
If you decide on Firefly, PM me, I might be willing to work something out (though shipping to Canada is going to sting).
Last edit: 07 Jan 2020 17:58 by Josh Look.
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12 Jan 2020 08:46 #306049
by Ah_Pook
Replied by Ah_Pook on topic Talk to me about space games!
Due to an unlikely confluence of late Christmas present Amazon gift cards I ended up grabbing all of Xia for $20 out of pocket, thanks thread 
Now to talk myself out of Firefly trade/bundle offers as they pop up for the foreseeable future... I still want to play that one pretty bad.
Now to talk myself out of Firefly trade/bundle offers as they pop up for the foreseeable future... I still want to play that one pretty bad.
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12 Jan 2020 09:36 #306050
by Shellhead
Replied by Shellhead on topic Talk to me about space games!
I played Relic once, and it wasn't fun at all. Imagine playing a first-level D&D character in a dungeon where any monster in the Monster Manual could be behind the next door. I got my ass kicked in every single fight, and there was nothing I could do about it because my choice of movement every turn was left, right, or stay. And there was no way to know which was the least bad option. A couple of the other players did adequately, and after four hours of play, one of them made it to the second ring. Our fourth player was some expansion option dude who was in opposition to the rest of us, which seemed primarily to function as a way to slow the whole game down, which is a freaking terrible idea for Relic. Even if I live for another three decades, I won't have time to spare for a second game of Relic.
Firefly is also a long game, though it plays somewhat faster once players start planning their turns in advance and scouting out discard piles. Unlike Relic, Firefly lets you assess your risks properly and make choices to avoid or face greater risks. It's generally better to start out with safer jobs and try to run up a lead on your opponents. Make them take the crime jobs to catch up. Crime is exciting, but you need to invest heavily in crew and gear and you still will occasionally get wrecked. The game does a decent job of capturing the spirit of the show, but like any sort of Firefly game, you will eventually be missing the engaging characters and witty dialogue from the show.
Firefly is also a long game, though it plays somewhat faster once players start planning their turns in advance and scouting out discard piles. Unlike Relic, Firefly lets you assess your risks properly and make choices to avoid or face greater risks. It's generally better to start out with safer jobs and try to run up a lead on your opponents. Make them take the crime jobs to catch up. Crime is exciting, but you need to invest heavily in crew and gear and you still will occasionally get wrecked. The game does a decent job of capturing the spirit of the show, but like any sort of Firefly game, you will eventually be missing the engaging characters and witty dialogue from the show.
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12 Jan 2020 10:23 #306053
by Ah_Pook
I haven't played Relic but this sounds pretty true to the Talisman experience. I quite like Talisman but it's not a game you play when you want to make choices. It's an indeterminate amount of bullshit happening and rolling dice and laughing at each other's misfortune and generally bring dicks to each other, and then either someone wins or you have had your fill and put it away. Having a ton of 2e expansions helps, as it's just more nonsense that could theoretically happen.
And hey look it can be space too if you have the right expansion
Replied by Ah_Pook on topic Talk to me about space games!
Shellhead wrote: I played Relic once, and it wasn't fun at all. Imagine playing a first-level D&D character in a dungeon where any monster in the Monster Manual could be behind the next door. I got my ass kicked in every single fight, and there was nothing I could do about it because my choice of movement every turn was left, right, or stay. And there was no way to know which was the least bad option. A couple of the other players did adequately, and after four hours of play, one of them made it to the second ring. Our fourth player was some expansion option dude who was in opposition to the rest of us, which seemed primarily to function as a way to slow the whole game down, which is a freaking terrible idea for Relic. Even if I live for another three decades, I won't have time to spare for a second game of Relic.
I haven't played Relic but this sounds pretty true to the Talisman experience. I quite like Talisman but it's not a game you play when you want to make choices. It's an indeterminate amount of bullshit happening and rolling dice and laughing at each other's misfortune and generally bring dicks to each other, and then either someone wins or you have had your fill and put it away. Having a ton of 2e expansions helps, as it's just more nonsense that could theoretically happen.
And hey look it can be space too if you have the right expansion
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12 Jan 2020 11:57 #306054
by hotseatgames
Replied by hotseatgames on topic Talk to me about space games!
There are some fan rules on BGG that speed up Relic, mainly in how you level up. Keep in mind that "speed up" only brings it to barely tolerable length, but I agree that if you play Relic with the mindset of having some fun screwing around in the 40k universe until you are tired of it and who cares if anyone actually makes it to the center, then go for it.
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12 Jan 2020 13:55 #306057
by jeb
Replied by jeb on topic Talk to me about space games!
We play "Level Up With 5 Points" in TALISMAN for that reason. No need to make this take longer. It's not like a team of geniuses sat down for years and worked out SEVEN point upgrades are the perfect entertainment. Just fix games to be what you want. Half of my minis games are putting guys on the rug and telling some cool ass story about space marines vs Playmobil.
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