CMON's Hate, "Exclusivity," FOMO, and Josh's post about combat systems

Sagrilarus wrote: If someone sold boardgamer sneakers there would be a raft of buyers.

We should pull a Reddit and actually create such a KS. I propose we call them THAC0s.

Stretch goal optional purchase: Eurogamer Sandulls.

I absolutely kickstart games because it gives me the tingles when it looks good, because I like waiting in anticipation for something cool, or because I want to be part of a campaign. And yes, this is somewhat different from when I buy a new game I might won't get to play in the near future. So yes, for me buying a game on kickstarter is a different experience from buying a game in a shop, and I (also) do it because I like that experience.

However, I don't buy the games that has a crapton of minis and I don't buy all the expansions at once. The closest I've come to that was Nemesis and later Nemesis Lockdown, but even with Lockdown (where I know I like the game) I'm not going to buy a ton of expansions before I know want more of the game. Hell, I haven't even tried the expansions that I got for "free" with the original Nemesis.

Sagrilarus wrote: The entire industry is about looking like a gamer as much as playing games. If someone sold boardgamer sneakers there would be a raft of buyers.

Jazzy scooter: Gloomhaven edition — now with XL Mountain Dew holder!

Sagrilarus wrote: Because, this isn't just about the games purchase "experience". It's about validating your self-chosen identity as a serious gamer. This is equally manifest in the purchase of $3500 gaming tables with vaults and the ever-so-important cup-holders, comfort chairs, Kallax shelves and the like. The entire industry is about looking like a gamer as much as playing games. If someone sold boardgamer sneakers there would be a raft of buyers.

I think you’re missing the importance of social media in all this. Twitter, Instagram and Facebook are all media dominated by images. The Kallax/game table/conspicuous consumption set are best demonstrated through these. Video, too, I guess, but that takes more effort on the part of the creator and time on the part of the consumer. If you spend more time on Discord or forums like these, you see more discussion because text is dominant. No one knows what third-party tokens you’re using when you post here.

I’m not willing to throw the whole gaming culture under the bus when it’s so mediated by the media you frequent and the way it encourages you to act.

^very good post.

I've been thinking about the "gamer look" thing and I've come to the conclusion I'm somewhat susceptible. Not like shoes or t-shirts to show to all the normies outside the house, but I do have like a dice tower, the nice timer cube that starts/stops when you turn it to a side, and the cheapish but useful BGG card holders. Furthermore, I'd love to get a drop surface dining table so I could conveniently play long wargames in physical form but since my dining table is reasonably nice already, I'd only get one that looked really good too and was a table quality upgrade... which puts me in the very high price range. Which is also why I don't have a drop surface table, to be clear. I'm trying to search my soul to think if this is to "look" like a gamer? Some of it might be, honestly.

CMON's Hate thread became a CMON hate thread.

Not sure if I own any CMON games...

Gary Sax wrote: So I don't know what to make of it besides saying "it is and can be both things" which kind of sucks as a post but...

And I think that's perfectly valid. As noted, my experience with KS has been universally positive, because I generally only use it for smaller publishers who are putting stuff there because that's where the eyeballs are. I'm not really interested in the piling on by everyone who seems to think that there are only a few valid ways to be a "gamer" (whatever that means) or that disdaining consumption habits by others are somehow worthwhile criticism. Do I, personally, think there are better ways to spend money than on 50 of the latest "hot things" that might see daylight once before being sold off to someone else with the same interest? Yes. Yes, I do. But it's not my money and, as long as they're not hurting anyone else, why should I care what other people do to have fun?

The fact that people throw down $300 for the latest from Awaken Realms doesn't detract from the brilliance of things like Root on the same website in any way, shape, or form. It's also interesting to note that, despite the approbation for Cthulhu Wars here, that game was basically the beginning of the "huge minis for ridiculous amounts of money" phenomenon and has gone through multiple KS campaigns that are enormous (sometimes literally) advertisements for excess in the board gaming sphere (Does anyone really need individual dice for each faction? Probably not. But if you want something like that, hey, there it is.) Should CW be considered a bad thing for what it basically triggered and continues to showcase (Last KS campaign for the "Ultimate" edition just wrapped up...)? If better games were being squeezed off the shelves by piles of overproduced stuff, that would be one thing. But, man, this is the Internet. If a quality game exists, it will be found and, more than likely, ordered online. Gamelyn invented an entire series of solid games for $20 and, again, they use KS because the eyeballs are there.

I think it's worth having the discussion about what's being marketed and how and why those things might be changing the environment as a whole, but once we get into trying to shame people for liking tables with cupholders (which, if you've ever had a drink spilled right onto a board full of cards (raises hand...) are extremely fucking useful) of all things, this place devolves into the mob mentality clubhouse that it's been way too often in the past, IMO.

One weird thing I was thinking about... by piling on the "CMON sucks" bandwagon, we're inadvertently taking a dump on most of the recent releases by one of the most successful/visible POC designers out there: Eric Lang. Seems to run counter to some of the goals of this site.

I don't get the kneejerk cooler than thou cmon piling on tbh, beyond their garbage Kickstarter practices. Granted their garbage Kickstarter practices are quite offputting.

I’ve been a CMON hater since the company started. That makes me a hipster, right?

I'd wager Mr. Lang doesn't have much say in CMON's product distribution policies, for his game and certainly not for somebody else's.

All of this boils down to a tempest in a teapot. It's this simple -- salesmen lie to make sales. Everyone on this site knows this, and thinking that someone that shares your hobby with you won't do that is naive. They don't see your relationship the same way you do.

Look at a game; look at the price. If the value is there, purchase. Everything else is just philosophical bullshit.

Jexik wrote: One weird thing I was thinking about... by piling on the "CMON sucks" bandwagon, we're inadvertently taking a dump on most of the recent releases by one of the most successful/visible POC designers out there: Eric Lang. Seems to run counter to some of the goals of this site.

Being a POC doesn't give you a free pass from critique. Aside from that, the dump is being taken on the corporate practices more than the game design. At least that is the read I get.

Personally, I love the the mountains of plastic I've gotten from my CMON KS offerings. I am more excited by the plastic than the game in Marvel United. I have zero problems with their KS practices. If the market is there, mine that shit as long as you can. Ultimately, the consumerism will balance out. I don't see myself putting in for any more KS board games for quite some time. At the same time, I know just saying that means I'll see a shiny new game in a couple months I want. It is better than eating my feelings I suppose, right?

the_jake_1973 wrote: Ultimately, the consumerism will balance out.

Yeah, but kinda not really. The money you're spending on big piles of shit could be much more efficiently (and frankly, fairly) supporting other efforts that aren't about chasing the biggest box. You have the right to spend your money where you see fit, but honestly, is the loudest guy in the room the person you want to give it to? Just because he's the loudest guy in the room?

I think we take a lot of people in this industry for granted, not providing them with even a little patronage in spite of the contribution they're making to our enjoyment of the hobby. Writers, podcasters, designers, small publishers, the lot. Instead we reward big companies making big games with big budgets and big message. We're giving money to millionaires to "support" them.

the_jake_1973 wrote: Being a POC doesn't give you a free pass from critique. Aside from that, the dump is being taken on the corporate practices more than the game design. At least that is the read I get.

For the most part I agree, and maybe I should have re-read the thread. After Barnes' blanket anti-CMON post Jackwraith showed up to essentially say, "yeah, but I really like Lang's work." So I wasn't really adding anything new.

I've just been bumping into Eric Lang's posts on Twitter and thinking, "he probably wouldn't like this thread or want to link to a site that says stuff like this..."

Eric's games are generally good to great. And here comes the but.... they didn't get better from the CMON treatment.