Front Page

Content

Authors

Game Index

Forums

Site Tools

Submissions

About

KK
Kevin Klemme
March 09, 2020
35146 2
Hot
KK
Kevin Klemme
January 27, 2020
20825 0
Hot
KK
Kevin Klemme
August 12, 2019
7405 0
Hot
O
oliverkinne
December 19, 2023
3967 0
Hot
O
oliverkinne
December 14, 2023
3497 0
Hot

Mycelia Board Game Review

Board Game Reviews
O
oliverkinne
December 12, 2023
2075 0
O
oliverkinne
December 07, 2023
2583 0

River Wild Board Game Review

Board Game Reviews
O
oliverkinne
December 05, 2023
2255 0
O
oliverkinne
November 30, 2023
2496 0
J
Jackwraith
November 29, 2023
3016 0
Hot
O
oliverkinne
November 28, 2023
1973 0
S
Spitfireixa
October 24, 2023
3692 0
Hot
O
oliverkinne
October 17, 2023
2625 0
O
oliverkinne
October 10, 2023
2461 0
O
oliverkinne
October 09, 2023
2289 0
O
oliverkinne
October 06, 2023
2505 0

Outback Crossing Review

Board Game Reviews
×
Bugs: Recent Topics Paging, Uploading Images & Preview (11 Dec 2020)

Recent Topics paging, uploading images and preview bugs require a patch which has not yet been released.

× Talk about the latest and greatest AT, and the Classics.

Descent definitely totally not 3.0

More
30 Jul 2021 07:21 #325057 by Erik Twice
I just think we all lose when we buy stuff we don't actually use.

While it's possible to get something out of a game that you don't play, most of the time it's just wasteful. I can't support people buying stuff they don't need just to have it gathering dust on the shelf, be it digital or physical. I know many who buy these 300€ Kickstarters and never even take them out of shrink. Boardgaming is filled with people with 30, 40 or more unplayed games sitting on their shelves! They are getting nothing of it and it's not much different than just throwing money down the drain. That's not the gaming culture I want to back.

More importantly, I don't think it's a choice. That is, I don't think people buy games knowing well they are going be wasted. Like you say, they have these aspirations of using them one day. This is worrysome for two reasons. The first is that those aspirations are false. Those games will never be played. The second is that these false aspirations stand in the way of actually enjoying the hobby. If we believe good gaming fun will fall upon us one day, we won't take steps to actually make sure that's the case.

If you enjoy buying and owning this just to read them, that's fine on a personal level. You are not fooling yourself. I myself own a bunch of retrogames I don't play because I enjoy the collecting aspect. But I'm afraid most people who buy this stuff aren't fully aware of what they are falling into. I've been there myself.

--

I also believe there are implications for game design. If games aren't bought for how they play that's going to have an impact and what kind of games are made.

You can see this on Kickstarter. The best selling games on the platform focus on what can be appreciated through a purchase screen. That is, miniatures, components and visuals. On the other hand, aspects that can only be appreciated in play take the back seat, resulting in poor balance, bad editing and a lack of depth.

On digital games, it has become more common for endings to be rushed. After all, why bother making a good ending when 70% of players will never reach it? Puzzles have become increasingly dumb, not because designers don't know better, but because research shows that most players will quit the game permanently if they can't solve them in five minutes. According to Ars Technica, 37% of games owned on Steam have never been played. If a third of your buyers don't play the game, that's going to affect how you make games.

I believe that what makes games great can only be accessed through play. So taking things away from that makes me worry.

Either way, don't pay much attention to my post. It's mostly rambling and I haven't quite formed an opinion on the issue yet.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Gary Sax, ChristopherMD, Frohike, sornars, Varys, n815e, Kmann

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
30 Jul 2021 08:35 #325058 by Jackwraith

sornars wrote: I agree with the general thrust of your argument but I do think, particularly with RPGs, that it doesn’t necessarily represent any sort of problem.


Have to agree with Sornars. This has been extant in the RPG world since at least the mid-90s when White Wolf's World of Darkness was at its height. That was marketed as a "storytelling" system that largely lacked the hard numbers of most other RPG systems of the time and, thus, made for really good reading if you just wanted to dive into a world and imagine the possibilities. A lot of Call of Cthulhu stuff was and is the same way.

As for boardgames, if people are buying just to admire them on a shelf, rather than actually playing them, I guess it's not too dissimilar from the people who've owned decorative chess sets for ages, which sit in a corner looking nice but never actually get played. Most modern board games are a bit more garish than your average cut stone chess set or something similar, but eye of the beholder and all that. If people want to set up a scenario of Descent and leave it in the corner as a conversation starter when people visit, that's their business. If they just want to leave it in the box and on the shelf, that's up to them, too. I don't think it will affect the critical appreciation that people have for those games, since there will still be many opinions cast that deem a game "successful" or not, regardless of sales.
The following user(s) said Thank You: southernman, sornars

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
30 Jul 2021 09:54 - 30 Jul 2021 09:56 #325059 by Michael Barnes
There’s a term in RPGs for all the games you buy that you never play because you are really only ever going to actually play D&D- “heartbreakers”.

I have a ton of RPG books both physical and digital. Unlike board games, my RPG books are useful even if I’m not playing whatever system or module it is because I like reading them and also because there’s -portability-. I can take inspiration from a setting or mechanic and bring it over to my kids’ D&D campaign. I can rip a dungeon out of one those massive WOTC epics and run it as a one shot. I can pull random tables from here and there and I might need a Displacer Badger stat line in the middle of a game and remember that there’s one in a zine I have. Then there’s all the great art and sometimes great writing. Alien is a fear game but it’s also a killer book about Alien lore.

Board games, you have a box that sits on a shelf unless you are actively, regularly playing it.

I’m already kind of wincing because I forgot that Goodman’s Original Adventures Reincarnated update of Temple of Elemental Evil comes out in a few weeks and I just bought Descent...it’s like $100, a double book set. But I absolutely have to have it.
Last edit: 30 Jul 2021 09:56 by Michael Barnes.
The following user(s) said Thank You: hotseatgames, sornars

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
30 Jul 2021 11:17 #325063 by fightcitymayor

charlest wrote: ...I'm getting pretty jaded with the platform.

We knew you would come around to The Dark Side eventually. I would like to formally welcome Charlie to the KS-haters club, dues are payable on the first of the month, you can just PayPal me if you want.
:cheer:
The following user(s) said Thank You: Gary Sax, Sagrilarus, charlest

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
30 Jul 2021 12:01 - 30 Jul 2021 12:23 #325066 by sornars
@Jackwraith White Wolf's World of Darkness series was exactly what I was thinking about when mentioning sourcebooks that were interesting just for the world building. A friend gave me their collection of books when they moved away and I fell in love with the system despite only ever playing it a few times.

@ErikTwice - I think the second half of your argument about how consumer preferences will shape what gets produced is very insightful and does represent a real risk to the health of the industry. The moral argument about not owning stuff is one I broadly agree with but I think that's more of an individual's problem that should be resolved through therapy rather than representing some problem with the industry itself. I suppose the industry problem is the intentional exploitation of this emotional void.
Last edit: 30 Jul 2021 12:23 by sornars.
The following user(s) said Thank You: BillyBobThwarton

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
02 Aug 2021 05:26 - 02 Aug 2021 06:40 #325108 by Ah_Pook


Dice tower review with lots of hands on footage of the app.

Edit: this really looks like a mediocre video game tied to an extremely expensive pile of cardboard terrain and minis. Vasel taking about not bothering to set up the board and the terrain and just playing in the app, and not wanting to play with a group because micromanaging what crafting mats you want to sell etc sucks with a group... Like... Why would you not just be playing Darkest Dungeon or something at that point?
Last edit: 02 Aug 2021 06:40 by Ah_Pook.
The following user(s) said Thank You: ubarose, Gary Sax, Sagrilarus, jpat, hotseatgames, sornars, mtagge

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
02 Aug 2021 09:40 #325113 by Michael Barnes
I’m not about to watch that review because Vasel goes far beyond my tolerance for smarm, mugging, and shilling. He also has a history of giving bad reviews to games that are unique, different, or progressive unless he is paid enough to fawn over them. Maybe FFG didn’t go foe the “Platinum” package this time? I would trust a board game review printed in Highlights for Kids over anything that the Dice Tower produces. How much do they make from publishers that pay them to put their games in the background while reviewing other games?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
02 Aug 2021 09:46 - 03 Aug 2021 09:04 #325115 by southernman
OK, I thought Tom made a lot of rubbish comments - all based on his specific personal preferences - along with highlighting things he did think worked:
I don't like the art, I don't like the dialogue on the screen, I don't like making 3D scenery, I don't like sharing crafting decisions and other stuff ('cos I want to do it my way), I didn't like the character back stories ... he's reviewing it as a video game :huh: .

But he he does point out the main problem with this game, although he didn't show shots of the content, is that apart from lots of scenery you don't get much else like cards and stuff - although you do get 45 quality minis so he obviously hasn't taken that into account.

The App - he seems to have missed the point and what it actually is there to do.
To start with it is quite similar to the Descent and Imperial Assault co-op apps (I haven't played MoM 2e yet) so nothing too much new to FFG customers here.
But what the App is there for, and seems to do:
- Removes the need for a player to be the Overlord (always discussion about balance/fun for this in these games).
- Provides all the story and backstory without a separate booklet to read in the box.
- Provides a campaign with hidden information, as well as side quests.
- Does the house-keeping of the combat details for the enemy attack and defence.
- Provides the post-quest 'market' and now 'crafting' options, this can also be more easily tuned/modified better for different cities or quest progress.
And additional stuff like showing LOS is a bonus (and a very good idea).

All of the above, apart from no O/L, can still be done in a standard boardgame - and some people prefer doing things like rolling for the enemies (although this can be frustrating if you keep making better rolls for them rather than your hero, so maybe best to just blame the app) - but the app cleanly automates it thus making people who find that tedious happy as well as those who may struggle with a lot of the options in the combat rules (so probably lowering the entry point for this as a boardgame).
I do like having a bit more control of doing things manually, especially in combats, but could live with most of it - the only change I would ask for is for an option to turn on by default the ability to see the damage calculation for the enemy, getting a straight enemy gets x damage is a bit too watered down for me.
Last edit: 03 Aug 2021 09:04 by southernman.
The following user(s) said Thank You: sornars, n815e

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
02 Aug 2021 09:50 - 02 Aug 2021 10:26 #325116 by sornars
I loathe Tom Vassel's review style but his final thoughts on this video seem reasonable enough.

TLDW: Lots of terrain is of questionable value, not much included component wise beyond the terrain. The app is key to the experience and the combat is quite fun but the stuff between scenarios feels like a video game that is best enjoyed solo (lots of reading, lots of decisions that are pointless to debate). The terrain looks cool when setup but is not fun to put together and lay out for each scenario. Story is a bit weak and the characters lack depth.

My biggest takeaway is that this looks like a potentially great solo game but would feel odd to play with other people. The shared experience would be the, apparently great, tactical combat but the rest of the game seems like a shareable experience that would best be enjoyed alone.

Edit: re: What to sell to the merchants being pointless. I can't help but agree with Tom. I hate making that decision in video games, I can't imagine it being any more fun when shared as a group decision. As to the comparisons to a video game not being apt, why aren't they? Entertainment time is finite and with this much app integration the comparison to playing something else on your laptop/iPad is obvious and seems warranted.

Edit2: I did notice the clearly in focus games behind Tom during the review and found that extremely bizarre. I actually thought he planned to point to them for some point of comparison or relevance to the current review but no, they just sat there as some sort of product placement.
Last edit: 02 Aug 2021 10:26 by sornars.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Gary Sax, Sagrilarus, n815e

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
02 Aug 2021 09:58 - 02 Aug 2021 10:05 #325117 by Sagrilarus
He’s off their review-copy list.

My takeaway from what he said is that this is a video game with a board game to support it, not the other way around. And that to a large extent the video game sucks.

I’m not a big fan of Tom’s reviews because we don’t have similar tastes. But he moved me from Don’t Buy to Don’t Play on this one. Really looks like a misguided project.

The terrain looks like as awful an idea as anyone has come up with since Mouse Trap. Yech.
Last edit: 02 Aug 2021 10:05 by Sagrilarus.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Shellhead, sornars, mtagge, n815e

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
02 Aug 2021 11:08 - 02 Aug 2021 11:23 #325128 by Gary Sax

sornars wrote: I loathe Tom Vassel's review style but his final thoughts on this video seem reasonable enough.

...

Edit2: I did notice the clearly in focus games behind Tom during the review and found that extremely bizarre. I actually thought he planned to point to them for some point of comparison or relevance to the current review but no, they just sat there as some sort of product placement.


It's hard for me to believe Tom's super weird somewhat unprofessional style managed to become such a big success. First mover advantage and different strokes, I guess. Imagine being, say, Shut Up and Sit Down and putting that much effort into your scripted videos and knowing the Dice Tower bad rules explanation/off the cuff seemingly one take personal opinion format probably beats or at least rivals you on views, money, etc. I don't even necessarily think he's wrong on this review or anything.

This second part you and Barnes pointed out is so fucking dark to me.

I think I posted in the discord on this, I might skip the extensive dice tower merch in the bgg store lol: boardgamegeekstore.com/collections/dicetower

The poster is my favorite, jesus christ. What would Erik Twice think.
Last edit: 02 Aug 2021 11:23 by Gary Sax.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Msample, themothman421, sornars, Nodens, n815e

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
02 Aug 2021 11:33 #325131 by Gary Sax
Oh, I should lead by example and post something more directly on topic too and not trash talk.

I do think that there is something in the idea that not having cards, etc for inventory and items and managing it via the app makes it a more solo experience. Hard to feel ownership over items someone else in the app is managing.

A tech solution here would be to make all players manage their own stuff via their phones or something, but this would be complex. So each player has an account and is slotted into a campaign, but is the only one who manages "their" items.
The following user(s) said Thank You: sornars, mtagge

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
02 Aug 2021 11:41 #325132 by sornars
That implementation would even provide a framework for meaningful discussion and force in game cooperation for the town part of the game. If your character picks up the crafting materials or wastes actions mid scenario to forage for stuff while the others beat up monsters, you might feel obligated to share some of the good stuff to let the others craft better gear. Rather than be a (from what I've seen) boring optimisation puzzle of how to best allocate communal resources.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
02 Aug 2021 11:50 - 02 Aug 2021 11:53 #325133 by Gary Sax
This gets at what you talked about in regard to the arkham lcg, where solo play is so much more efficient for solving a scenario puzzle.
Last edit: 02 Aug 2021 11:53 by Gary Sax.
The following user(s) said Thank You: sornars

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
02 Aug 2021 11:58 #325134 by hotseatgames

Gary Sax wrote:
I think I posted in the discord on this, I might skip the extensive dice tower merch in the bgg store lol: boardgamegeekstore.com/collections/dicetower

The poster is my favorite, jesus christ. What would Erik Twice think.


I had never seen that before. So...thanks for that, I hate it.
The following user(s) said Thank You: sornars

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Moderators: Gary Sax
Time to create page: 0.251 seconds