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× For those who like to push chits.

Up Front vs Combat Commander (again), and VASSAL 2016?

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22 Nov 2015 19:31 - 22 Nov 2015 19:58 #215648 by SuperFlySwatter
OK, I'll go a little bit arse over tit by starting with the VASSAL part of the title - I'm pretty booked up for the next few weeks at work so am unlikely to have a lot of free time until the new year, but if anyone is willing (interested) to hook up on VASSAL for some learning games of these - particularly Up Front since I've dabbled a couple of times with Combat Commander and dont think it was that difficult (still always nicer to refresh and relearn via a game with someone who knows it well though).

I'm sure I'm not the first, or last person to stash shit on their shelves, get caught up in wishful thinking about playing this or that game perhaps even acquiring a boat load of expansions only to later change their mind or change their tastes before getting round to playing it and then feeling stoopid.

sometimes it works out (read: Conflict of Heroes, which I'm finally getting going and am really enjoying), but sometimes you're not sure, and this is one of those cases. Now there's no panic to get rid of one or the other, but in general, I almost always find it easier to cull down my options to be able to really get into something, my free time is limited, my patience for learning rules and games is limited but along with a local pal we are going to devote some time to some proper wargames and I've coem to the conclusion that I am probably only going to learn Combat Commander (yes, I "caught it all") or Up Front.


Just physically, Up Front has a lot going for it, portable, single box, retro style, no map etc, and while it still sells well, its not as expensive as the metric fuckton of CC I have on the shelf by the side of it (and part of me wonders if I should keep Up Front along with CC Pacific, since that would seem less idiotic on the shelf, and provides an alternative theatre, polished (debatable?) CC system. - (aside: I Have fighting formations stashed away for tanks, though might have erred in getting rid of the 2012 version of Panzer in its stead).


In terms of game, theres something about UF that seems "right" to me, almost like CC tried to imitate the battlefield chaos with the card system but that maybe fights against itself having a map with the resulting plan of action and physically illustrated actions and puzzles / constraints (and fiddle) so I've always felt like UF (basedon what I know and have read) is more of a pure incarnation of this card system where the battlefield and encounters are totally abstracted away. This is appealing, perhaps even more so now I am enjoying the lush "shit on a map*" tactical feel of Conflict of Heroes

I've also got Ghost Panzer, another slimline package with a similar rules heft to CC and UF (as I understand, outside of AFV Up Front is not that hard once you get it shown to you, its just the rulebook thats a bit ugly). but that one also has tanks, it remains to be seen if it feels sufficiently more involved to displace Conflict of Heroes especially now this solo system is out for CoH


sorry I digressed (again)

so, how many of you have played Up Front and Combat Commander and can comment on them in comparison, be it rules complexity, fiddle factor, play time, feel, etc, am I right in thinking that in some ways the map/counters of CC actually works in opposition to the card play (whereas UF fully embraces it), CC has a shit load of expansions and maps and I assume loads of replayabilty, does UF have the same, or does the "feel" of encounters (doesnt it have a limited number of scenarios? but maybe a create your own points system that I guess you can weigh up against RSG in CC) start to get a bit samey, I'm talking about basic techniques of how youre using the movemement and terrain cards and how you make up your groups and how you move them around etc. I'm not a proper wargamer, and no expert, so as an outsider, it "feels like" the replayability of the CC system with expansions, maps, and random scenarios based around different physical locations is better even if thats superficial (which will likely be relevant to the likes of me), whereas UF with scenarios and home made points matchups will still focus around the card play of the same 162 card deck each time so its replayability but within a very subtle and finite space (I hope I am making some kind of sense).

Well, I'm all ears if you can be arsed to share your thoughts - sure I could go out and find this all out for myself, and no doubt that would make me a better person but in the real world I just dont have the time or energy to learn all those systems (so why buy them all you cock, his inner tourette cricket screams) and then sit down and play them all in enough depth to judge, whereas posting this lengthy post and then dropping in regularly to check on replies is eminently doable and quite fun in its own regard - possibly helping others who might read it

have at it

* Not to be interpreted as me literally having shit, on a map
Last edit: 22 Nov 2015 19:58 by SuperFlySwatter.

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23 Nov 2015 08:16 #215687 by ThirstyMan
Purely a personal opinion. I've played CC but not UF (although I do have it).

I find CC a bit too trivial it's like a tactical game for people that want a fast game with no thinking required. Keep in mind I play ASL though, so I'm pretty biased. I HATE the fact that routs are random and controlled by you (not PANIC stations). Command and control is all well and good but the game itself feels clunky (dumping an entire hand of cards because they are all useless to you seems a pointless waste of time). I get what the designer is trying to do but it doesn't sit right with me. No fire lanes, no armour, no real ability to coordinate a decent attack, unless you draw the right cards. I still have all of the modules but I regret buying them. It's not a puzzle game (like ASL often is). It does tell a narrative and it's fun for two players. Utter rubbish solitaire though (another reason I don't like it).

AS I understand it UF is a whole different ballgame and much better but much more involved and complex. I can't really speak in detail about it because I haven't played it but looking forward to trying it out in the near future.
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