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12 Aug 2014 18:26 - 12 Aug 2014 18:27 #184734 by black inferno

Michael Barnes wrote: considering where those reviews were coming from, I should've known better.

It's shocking how many great games suffer from low ratings (comparatively) at BGG. You see bullshit like whatever Kickstarter is currently hot, like Heroes of Normandie, ranked with average ratings of 8+ while stone classics and some really good games that have been around for 20 years are rated 6/7. Of course, numbers don't mean anything in the long run but it's a shame that the hobby leaves so much behind. This is, as I've said, EXACTLY the same situation as what was going on in 2003, 2004, 2005 when all of the good AT games were out of print and considered out of vogue.


Adel Verpflichtet, a modern classic, one of the all-time great 5-player games, a game that really becomes a party game if you have a fun group that really gets into the mindfuck aspect of the bluffing, has a 6.57 avg rating. Meanwhile, Myth, the culmination of everything that's wrong with the post-FFG generation, the ultimate poster child of crowdfunding dysfunction, a game that has the worst piece of shit rulebook I've ever read (like, seriously, I didn't think it could possibly be as bad as everyone claimed...until I read it. Holy. Fuck.)...has a 6.62. So, yeah, that should tell you how much stock to put into BGG's user ratings.

Michael Barnes wrote: I mean, fucking christ, REINER KNIZIA is a name that there's an entire generation of gamers don't even know other than through barely anecdotal comments like Rab Florence's thing about most of his games "sucking". All because he quit making "gamer's games"...likely because he realized what a clusterfuck the hobby market is. I think it says a lot that he's not a registered member at BGG and he doesn't participate in the online discussions and so forth like many designers do.


Knizia just needs to Kickstart some zombie/Cthulhu rethemes of his old classics, throw in a few douchey stretch goals, write ~50 or so post-funding updates about production delays in China, and the knuckledraggers would hail him as the next big thing.
Last edit: 12 Aug 2014 18:27 by black inferno.

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12 Aug 2014 18:55 #184735 by Chaz
I think Tigris & Euphrates & Cthulhu & Zombies would be a surefire Kickstarter success.

Damn, this reminds me that I really need to pick up a new copy of Bohnanza. When I split up with my ex four years ago, I slashed my massive 100+ game collection down to around 20 by letting her take some and giving a bunch to my buddies. I'm pretty sure Bohnanza left with the ex, along with some other stuff I wish I'd kept like Santiago and Pompeii. At least Bohnanza is available and cheap.

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12 Aug 2014 19:28 #184737 by ChristopherMD
Bohnanza is an amazing game. Only time I didn't enjoy it was with a bunch of guys that actually kept track of everyone's score and would do the calculations so "don't trade that to him or he'll have X points and with the Y% chance to get this other card he'll be in the lead" kind of comments came up every single trade. Really shows how a boring group can ruin even the funnest of games. Or it could be that I'm just more of an intuition player. I guess who is in the lead by looking at the size of their point stack. I trade based on what I think is best for me and not as helpful to you. I love playing this with noobs and seeing their faces the first time someone tries to literally give them a card for nothing in return. Bohnanza isn't a Lost Treasure. Its a fucking classic that most people should own. I don't even like negotiation games and I love it.

Speaking of not liking negotiation games or timed games. I hate Dragon's Gold. Not as much as I hate I'm The Boss though. That game angers up my blood like few others.

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12 Aug 2014 19:38 - 12 Aug 2014 19:40 #184738 by Gary Sax
Why do you hate I'm the Boss, Mad Dog?

Also, you're dead to me, dave. Fistful of Dragonstones is my worst game experience of all time. Hansa Teutonica #2.
Last edit: 12 Aug 2014 19:40 by Gary Sax.

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12 Aug 2014 19:51 #184740 by dave

Gary Sax wrote: Hansa Teutonica #2.

I've played HT once in my life. It was at a con. I knew right away that it was the sort of insufferable do-a-bunch-of-things-get-a-bunch-of-points modern Euro that would destroy my soul. So I adopted a strategy that would end the game as soon as possible while maintaining a facade of "I'm curious what would happen if...". It ended mercifully quickly; I wonder whether the other players were onto me.

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12 Aug 2014 20:15 #184742 by dragonstout

black inferno wrote: Knizia just needs to Kickstart some zombie/Cthulhu rethemes of his old classics

Minus the kickstart part, Knizia of course already has done Cthulhu and Zombie games: Zombiegeddon, Mmm...Brains!, and Cthulhu Rising (look at a picture of the board in play for that last one, and it's pretty much THE peak negative stereotype people have about Knizia). Much as I love Knizia, it'd be foolish to suggest that he's above crass commercial maneuvers. But who cares? Why give the guy a hard time for wanting to make money?

Playing some new Knizia games recently (Medici and Beowulf), and I'm struck with how much his games, at least the big ones, really do have some running themes that are clearly important to him...and I mean "theme" in the literary sense here. Like, definitely a core lesson of a LOT of his games is "choose your battles; you can't win everything all of the time". That's a core theme of Blue Moon, Battle Line, Lost Cities, Keltis, Beowulf, Taj Mahal, more I'm sure, all of which really PUNISH you HARD for not accepting that defeat is a part of life.

Speaking of Bohnanza and Rosenberg's old days, has Mamma Mia come up yet? It's not one I kept, but it's a fun light card game, and is probably the best "memory" game I can remember playing.
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12 Aug 2014 20:32 #184743 by VonTush

Bull Nakano wrote: Dice Town is such a frustrating game, there will be many turns you'll visit Doc Badluck because your turn accomplished literally nothing. This game just isn't any fun to me.

Bohnanza is an incredible trading game. I love it and want to play it all the time, you can make some pretty creative deals. Gets real good at 5-7.


Bohnanza isn't one I considered lost since I agree that it is a fantastic game, but considering how long it's been since I've seen anyone talk about it...Perhaps it is. A glaring open hole in my collection.

Dice Town I've only seen this issue with more people. And one the expansion fixes since it allows actions for the first and second player.

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12 Aug 2014 20:33 #184744 by Gary Sax
hahaha, that is the WORST board of all time!!!

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12 Aug 2014 20:34 #184745 by ChristopherMD

Gary Sax wrote: Why do you hate I'm the Boss, Mad Dog?


Fortunately its been many years since I've played. I recall players going through several (or more) minutes of negotiations each turn to work out a deal and then someone always just plays a card that makes all of it pointless. For me the whole game is literally mostly a waste of time multiplied by however many turns. I'd rather play Fluxx or Candyland over this annoying fucking game.
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12 Aug 2014 20:48 #184749 by black inferno

dragonstout wrote:

black inferno wrote: Knizia just needs to Kickstart some zombie/Cthulhu rethemes of his old classics

Minus the kickstart part, Knizia of course already has done Cthulhu and Zombie games: Zombiegeddon, Mmm...Brains!, and Cthulhu Rising (look at a picture of the board in play for that last one, and it's pretty much THE peak negative stereotype people have about Knizia).


I was being facetious, of course; I do my absolute best to avoid zombie and Cthulhu-themed games in the wild. And, man, how did I know before I even Googled it that Cthulhu Rising was a Twilight Creations joint. They seem like nice people but man do they produce some ugly, gauche trash. Gravediggers (another Knizia retheme) is a middling auction game with components that could charitably be described as "prototype-grade" (the money chits are one-sided, for Chrissakes).

I think the worst Knizia retheme ever, at least in terms of being a complete fucking mess, is Maginor, an old FFG joint from 2001.

Playing some new Knizia games recently (Medici and Beowulf), and I'm struck with how much his games, at least the big ones, really do have some running themes that are clearly important to him...and I mean "theme" in the literary sense here. Like, definitely a core lesson of a LOT of his games is "choose your battles; you can't win everything all of the time". That's a core theme of Blue Moon, Battle Line, Lost Cities, Keltis, Beowulf, Taj Mahal, more I'm sure, all of which really PUNISH you HARD for not accepting that defeat is a part of life.


Definitely. The "pick your battles" aspect is a big part of why I like his work so much. There's a uniquely dissonant tension in knowing you have to make multiple concessions to your opponent in order to win, as well as identify what to concede and when to concede it. So many games try so hard to artificially synthesize that kind of tension; with Knizia's best work, that tension is already hard-coded into the basic mechanics of the game. Samurai's another game that's virtually impossible to win if you try to go after every category.

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13 Aug 2014 00:49 #184760 by Bull Nakano

VonTush wrote:

Bull Nakano wrote: Dice Town is such a frustrating game, there will be many turns you'll visit Doc Badluck because your turn accomplished literally nothing. This game just isn't any fun to me.

Bohnanza is an incredible trading game. I love it and want to play it all the time, you can make some pretty creative deals. Gets real good at 5-7.


Bohnanza isn't one I considered lost since I agree that it is a fantastic game, but considering how long it's been since I've seen anyone talk about it...Perhaps it is. A glaring open hole in my collection.

Dice Town I've only seen this issue with more people. And one the expansion fixes since it allows actions for the first and second player.

I agree Bohnanza isn't lost by any stretch, the ERP is a sentimental bunch though.

I've only played Dice Town base game and with 5.

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13 Aug 2014 00:59 #184761 by VonTush
Four I think is a good spot with just the base game - You get the competition but visits to The Doc are rare. Three isn't bad but lacks some competition. I made the mistake once of playing with six using player components from the expansion, and nothing else, and that was a mistake at least two were seeing The Doc every turn. If you get a chance to try again with four, I'd say give it a shot...Assuming you at least liked the general premise of the game.
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13 Aug 2014 01:02 - 13 Aug 2014 01:03 #184763 by veemonroe
Dragon's Gold is great, although it feels it takes too long - a bit like Citadels.

Aladdin's Dragons is amazing, brilliant... Just this great blind bidding game with gorgeous pieces, and a great theme.

Dice Town is fun with the expansion, and much more strategic than King of Tokyo or Quarriors.

Mamma Mia is hilarious. We bought it recently and I cannot explain how funny it is. I was concerned because it was a *memory* game, but you can't memorise anything. Instead you're just throwing down ingredient cards and hoping for the best.

Bear in mind, I'm coming from the position of someone who has only been in the hobby for three years so I played the new stuff first. And have bought older games as I've spent more time in the hobby.
Last edit: 13 Aug 2014 01:03 by veemonroe.

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14 Aug 2014 15:56 - 14 Aug 2014 16:01 #184846 by black inferno
Mamma Mia is great!

Man, I've never thought of Dragon's Gold as being a particularly long game. Here it plays in about 30-40 minutes. And you could easily control the length by randomly removing some dragons from the deck before starting. And yeah, Citadels takes entirely too long. I don't have any interest in playing that one again; it's a neat enough game, but for me it still bears the mark of being the Very First "It" Game to get wildly hyped and blown out of proportion by a then-fledgling BGG.

I spent my lunch break thinking a lot about Knizia re-themes. But, specifically: GMT and FFG's Knizia small box re-themes ca. late 90s/early aughts. There's a lot of these that I've flat-out never played, and most of them are dirt cheap on the web. Maybe some gems out there?

GMT:
Battle Line - One of the best two-player card games ever published.

Ivanhoe - Funny thing: not counting new-ish purchases that haven't hit the table yet, there are only three games in my collection that I've never played. Ivanhoe is one of them, and I've had it since 2001 or so.

Formula Motor Racing - I think I played this in college, once, and liked it.

Galaxy: The Dark Ages - I know I've played this once or twice, but it was well over ten years ago. Don't remember anything about it.

FFG:
King's Gate - IIRC it's a Samurai-style thing played with square tiles instead of a hex grid. Never played it.

Maginor - the worst Knizia game I've ever played: lame system with an incredibly awkward FFG implementation and chits that started to peel apart the moment you un-punched them. I think people forget how shoddy FFG's components were ca. 2000.

Atlanteon - another chintzy Knizia thing from that early-2000s FFG era, played it once. Hilariously gaudy presentation. It's horrible to look at. You know, FFG's in-house art style nowadays is instantly recognizable. I'm pretty sure they did some Experiment IV-style secret research in the mid-2000s to scientifically pinpoint the precise intersection between "competent" and "generic" art. But back in the old days, their art was a lot trashier - sometimes for good, sometimes for bad - and it was at least interesting. I dunno. But, hey, I think FFG was just a more interesting company pre-GoT, a company that peaked in the late 90s with Battlemist (which, with the mandatory Sails of War expansion, is the greatest fantasy wargame of all time. No, Runewars isn't the same, fuck you). Anyway.

Scarab Lords / Minotaur Lords - Never played either of these, but you can get them online for basically free. Are these re-themes or originals? Are they like Blue Moon? Holy fuck, do I ever love Blue Moon.

Kingdoms - It's okay. I like it fine. But I think it's a little odd that this is the Knizia game FFG has chosen to reprint like four times.

Colossal Arena - Never played it.
Last edit: 14 Aug 2014 16:01 by black inferno.
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16 Aug 2014 18:44 #185108 by Michael Barnes
All the pibble-pabble lately about FFG games...easy to forget that we should be talkingf about playing games more than how they are sold.

Man. Tower of Babel...what a crazy Knizia design...no wonder it didn't do well...too interactive for the Eurogamers, too abstract for the AT Dudebros. In 1994, 1995...it's a SDJ game. Extremely simple...on your turn you either build or pass. If you build, you pick a building chip off one of the wonders and solicit help to meet the number on it. Players put forth a number of cards face down and then reveal. You choose who gets in on it. But people can put out other building material cards or a haggling card so you can't take as much. But whoever you pick to get in on it puts out a marker per card they contributed. So there's he whole "choose who to help" thing. The wonders score up like a majorities game. It may be brilliant.

There are no auctions in it. More like contract submissions.

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