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Can games, electronic and otherwise, be ART?
- Legomancer
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19 Nov 2018 11:08 #286488
by Legomancer
Replied by Legomancer on topic Can games, electronic and otherwise, be ART?
It's worth pointing out that in Shakespeare's time, the entertainment across the street competing with seeing a play was bear baiting, where they had a bear in a pit with some dogs and you watched em fight. If you chose to go to the play, you could be one of the "groundlings", who stood on the ground near the stage (or sat on it) and for a snack, they sold walnuts. So you had Richard Burbage acting his heart out without amplifiers, over the sound of cracking walnuts. The plays were a popular site for pickpockets, and if one got caught, they'd send someone to go get the sheriff, stop the play, put the accused on the stage, and throw things at him until John Law arrived. Then they'd haul him away and start the play back up.
My point is that this stuff wasn't as highfaultin as all that. A great deal of "art" was just stuff being produced at the time. There were definitely shittier plays than Shakespeare at the time (I've read some real clunkers) and Shakespeare is definitely a cut a above with regards to talent, but these days we perceive "art" as something that is created to become "art", not as something that is created and then stands above because of something about its craftsmanship.
My point is that this stuff wasn't as highfaultin as all that. A great deal of "art" was just stuff being produced at the time. There were definitely shittier plays than Shakespeare at the time (I've read some real clunkers) and Shakespeare is definitely a cut a above with regards to talent, but these days we perceive "art" as something that is created to become "art", not as something that is created and then stands above because of something about its craftsmanship.
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19 Nov 2018 12:44 #286494
by GorillaGrody
This is true, though when we dive into definitional discussions of craft—which, like high faulting discussions of the nature of aesthetics, is by necessity a set of problems for which one has to study—it looks so much like heiarchical snoot culture it gets shot down using the same skeet gun. In IMHO culture, anything that disrupts commerce, even for the good of commerce, looks like pretention.
It’s a shame, because knowledge of and transcendence of craft has always been the poor person’s way into art, whereas aesthetics have tended to serve ideological structures of power.
With that said, I can see bear baiting as being lot of fun, if you aren’t a bear.
Replied by GorillaGrody on topic Can games, electronic and otherwise, be ART?
Legomancer wrote: these days we perceive "art" as something that is created to become "art", not as something that is created and then stands above because of something about its craftsmanship.
This is true, though when we dive into definitional discussions of craft—which, like high faulting discussions of the nature of aesthetics, is by necessity a set of problems for which one has to study—it looks so much like heiarchical snoot culture it gets shot down using the same skeet gun. In IMHO culture, anything that disrupts commerce, even for the good of commerce, looks like pretention.
It’s a shame, because knowledge of and transcendence of craft has always been the poor person’s way into art, whereas aesthetics have tended to serve ideological structures of power.
With that said, I can see bear baiting as being lot of fun, if you aren’t a bear.
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19 Nov 2018 14:30 #286499
by ubarose
Replied by ubarose on topic Can games, electronic and otherwise, be ART?
Strictly speaking, Fine Art is visual art - painting, sculpture, drawing, etc.
Theatre, movies, dance, music are performing arts, not fine art.
Written works are literature, not fine art.
Then you have applied art, which are things that have a function or purpose other than to be contemplated for their aesthetics and meaning. Applied art is easy to understand when talking about flatware, or lamps or chairs. It gets a bit more difficult when discussing illustration and decor art.
People get hung up on the word "fine" as it seems to imply quality. You need to let go of that idea. It simply means visual art created for no other purpose or function than to be art. There is shitty fine art and there is amazing applied art. There is also a lot of grey area between the two that academics have been debating for at least a century.
As far as games go, since their primary function is to be a game, they are applied art. There are a very few, like Mushroom Eaters and Demono, that fall into a grey area where it could be argued that they are not really intended to function as games, but are rather intended to be contemplated for their meaning and aesthetics, and therefore might cross the line into fine art.
Theatre, movies, dance, music are performing arts, not fine art.
Written works are literature, not fine art.
Then you have applied art, which are things that have a function or purpose other than to be contemplated for their aesthetics and meaning. Applied art is easy to understand when talking about flatware, or lamps or chairs. It gets a bit more difficult when discussing illustration and decor art.
People get hung up on the word "fine" as it seems to imply quality. You need to let go of that idea. It simply means visual art created for no other purpose or function than to be art. There is shitty fine art and there is amazing applied art. There is also a lot of grey area between the two that academics have been debating for at least a century.
As far as games go, since their primary function is to be a game, they are applied art. There are a very few, like Mushroom Eaters and Demono, that fall into a grey area where it could be argued that they are not really intended to function as games, but are rather intended to be contemplated for their meaning and aesthetics, and therefore might cross the line into fine art.
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19 Nov 2018 14:36 #286501
by SaMoKo
Replied by SaMoKo on topic Can games, electronic and otherwise, be ART?
Is cosmetic surgery fine art, or applied art?
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19 Nov 2018 14:39 #286502
by Frohike
Replied by Frohike on topic Can games, electronic and otherwise, be ART?
Interesting that craft vs. art came up when I was just thinking about Scott McCloud's old arguments about comics as art and Samuel R Delany's work on breaking down some of Scott's assumptions in an essay titled "The Politics of Paraliterary Criticism." Delany skewers some aspects of Scott McCloud's Understanding Comics in a manner that remains respectful of Scott's work, while enlightening an assumed dichotomy between "craft" and "art" that is much less formally inherent and much more political than one would initially think. He also gets into the topics of "origins" and their conflation with a search for authority that plagued much of paraliterary crit (and still does). It's an amazing read, for those of you who have the time. I'll attach a PDF here.
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19 Nov 2018 15:33 #286504
by DarthJoJo
Replied by DarthJoJo on topic Can games, electronic and otherwise, be ART?
I’m really enjoying a lot of the points raised here, and I want to raise another question: many of the posts here (rightfully, I think) look at the game as art and designer as artist, but are there games where the player is artist as well?
D&D seems like an obvious game where the players are the artists, maybe a number of social games like Dixit, too, but are there Euros or Ameritrash where the players are the artists? What about collectible card games and miniature gaming? Is list/deck construction art?
D&D seems like an obvious game where the players are the artists, maybe a number of social games like Dixit, too, but are there Euros or Ameritrash where the players are the artists? What about collectible card games and miniature gaming? Is list/deck construction art?
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19 Nov 2018 15:54 - 19 Nov 2018 15:59 #286505
by ubarose
I think you are being facetious. However, anatomical alteration as art is one of the many rabbit holes of debate you can fall into if you wish. There isn't a tremendous amount written about it, but enough to keep you busy.
Personally, I studied design and never had any qualms about not being called an artist, or my work not being called fine art. But some people really get their panties in a wad over it. So bring your popcorn, especially if you visit the tatoo as art debates.
Replied by ubarose on topic Can games, electronic and otherwise, be ART?
SaMoKo wrote: Is cosmetic surgery fine art, or applied art?
I think you are being facetious. However, anatomical alteration as art is one of the many rabbit holes of debate you can fall into if you wish. There isn't a tremendous amount written about it, but enough to keep you busy.
Personally, I studied design and never had any qualms about not being called an artist, or my work not being called fine art. But some people really get their panties in a wad over it. So bring your popcorn, especially if you visit the tatoo as art debates.
Last edit: 19 Nov 2018 15:59 by ubarose.
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19 Nov 2018 17:18 #286508
by the_jake_1973
Replied by the_jake_1973 on topic Can games, electronic and otherwise, be ART?
Players of Fiasco, entertaining ones, are artists.
I'm not sure that deck construction is as much an art form as it is a science.
I fall on the art side in the body mod discussion. It seems like the last art frontier and technology will allow for some amazing changes.
I'm not sure that deck construction is as much an art form as it is a science.
I fall on the art side in the body mod discussion. It seems like the last art frontier and technology will allow for some amazing changes.
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