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Bugs: Recent Topics Paging, Uploading Images & Preview (11 Dec 2020)

Recent Topics paging, uploading images and preview bugs require a patch which has not yet been released.

× Talk about whatever you like related to games that doesn't fit anywhere else.

Rodney Smith discussing Paid/Unpaid reviews

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23 May 2019 19:55 #297560 by Not Sure
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23 May 2019 20:15 #297563 by GorillaGrody

Not Sure wrote:


I deserve that.
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24 May 2019 03:16 #297581 by Sevej

ChristopherMD wrote: I'm going to ask the BIG question here. Can this issue realistically be changed for the better at this point? Seems like there would need to be consensus on it and I don't see that happening.


As far as I can see, no. So I let them solve it. For me, I'll review the reviewer. I mean, even with declaration and everything, they still could be lying. So I'm sticking the tried and true method: their review against my actual experience.

TBH, I'm sick of people busy saying Rodney is blaming the audience instead of addressing the issue he's on. That's red herring.

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24 May 2019 09:02 #297586 by cropcircles

Space Ghost wrote: It's destroying the hobby -- not because of the reasons that people usually claim, but because there can be little critical discussion, which is the real place that opinions and arguments are honed and refined, and in a healthy system, worked back into the development of new games.


I think this is exactly it. Not to sound all anti-capitalist or anything, but it’s the difference between a community and a marketplace.

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24 May 2019 09:15 #297588 by cropcircles
Which is to say, what Grody said.

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24 May 2019 10:32 #297595 by Sagrilarus

Sevej wrote: TBH, I'm sick of people busy saying Rodney is blaming the audience instead of addressing the issue he's on. That's red herring.


To give you the benefit of the doubt I watched the video again and Rodney is pretty doggone clear -- unpaid reviews are a problem, that we the consumers value our time and money, but not the reviewer's time and money. He calls unpaid reviews an equal, if not bigger issue, and then drops the little card for it in the more severe category. Unpaid reviews are the big problem we should be discussing.

So he opens the video with nobody is doing paid reviews and finishes with doing unpaid reviews is worse. What are his viewers supposed to take away from that?
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24 May 2019 10:51 #297596 by ubarose

Sagrilarus wrote:

Sevej wrote: TBH, I'm sick of people busy saying Rodney is blaming the audience instead of addressing the issue he's on. That's red herring.


To give you the benefit of the doubt I watched the video again and Rodney is pretty doggone clear -- unpaid reviews are a problem, that we the consumers value our time and money, but not the reviewer's time and money. He calls unpaid reviews an equal, if not bigger issue, and then drops the little card for it in the more severe category. Unpaid reviews are the big problem we should be discussing.

So he opens the video with nobody is doing paid reviews and finishes with doing unpaid reviews is worse. What are his viewers supposed to take away from that?


He's facilitating the discussion so that his readers conclude.

1. Getting free review copies is trivial, and people should stop whining about it.
2. Accept the fact that people who do reviews may also create content, because the money they earn creating content is what allows them to produce reviews.
3. If you don't like #2, then you need to pay the reviewer.

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24 May 2019 11:03 #297598 by GorillaGrody
Y'all made me do a meme

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24 May 2019 11:41 - 24 May 2019 11:43 #297600 by Sagrilarus

ubarose wrote: He's facilitating the discussion so that his readers conclude.

1. Getting free review copies is trivial, and people should stop whining about it.
2. Accept the fact that people who do reviews may also create content, because the money they earn creating content is what allows them to produce reviews.
3. If you don't like #2, then you need to pay the reviewer.


I'll agree with item 1, though I prefer a more amateur review from someone that just happens to own the game (but again -- I play old boardgames. Most don't.)

Regarding items 2 and 3, that's not what he's saying, at least not in this video. He's saying reviewers should get paid. More exactly, he's saying reviewers that don't get paid are the biggest problem at the moment, and that that should be the primary topic of debate. You can read the preview/review issue into the message if you like and he glanced at it, but it sure wasn't his central theme. He clearly ended on the worst problem is the unpaid review, let's discuss.

Straight up, if you want to do paid advertisements for the companies like the vids that run at Gamestop knock yourselves out. I don't have a problem with it. They're pretty transparent and I know what advertisments are for. But coming away from this video (both the first and second time) was the feeling that Rodney sees unpaid reviews as inherently unfair, in spite of the overwhelming majority of them being a labor of love, a contribution to the hobby with perhaps a few thank-yous or comments considered sufficient payment. That's what he asked to discuss, so here I am.

Yeah, I get it, he's throwing a skunk on the table to generate revenue. Part of the game. I'm glad to provide him with some free publicity here, because I have no clue where his actual channel is and don't want to spend the time to look it up.

Meanwhile I need home addresses for Josh and Al so that I can send each of them a check, as at the moment I'm getting more enjoyment out of THEIR REVIEWS THAN ANY OF THE CLAPTRAP COMING OUT OF THE MONETIZED ELITE! You want paid reviews? Give me their goddamned addresses!
Last edit: 24 May 2019 11:43 by Sagrilarus.
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24 May 2019 12:14 - 24 May 2019 12:18 #297601 by Gary Sax
To add an optimistic comment... I see the patreon model becoming more established and normalized in the podcast space, to the extent that good creators are actually making sustainable money and it's their business. That seems like the way forward, but, as was mentioned, there's a norm to not pay for online content that's only beginning to be eroded in niche hobbies. Once that goes away more I think we might see a feasible alternate system to media paid third party reviewers.

Patreon is creeping into board game stuff. I think it's a good thing, but I'll be happy when it's better established. So Heavy Cardboard has a patreon that helps fund their efforts, but it isn't enough to prevent them from doing company supported sponsored work (advertising, as was mentioned) which muddles things a bit. I believe So Very Wrong about Games has a patreon as well, though only for 700 bucks a month which isn't self sustaining... they also barely publicize it so...

The good news is that it doesn't take *that* many patrons contributing 3-5 dollars to make a model like this work for a small podcast, written review, or video review operation. It can happen if only a tiny part of the audience starts paying.
Last edit: 24 May 2019 12:18 by Gary Sax.
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24 May 2019 12:31 #297602 by hotseatgames
"Only" $700 a month!??!?!

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24 May 2019 12:35 - 24 May 2019 12:36 #297603 by charlest
Heavy Cardboard is multiple thousand, so that's probably the context for "only".

What's particularly humorous (in a sad way) is if you compare what the Dice Tower pulls in on their Kickstarter to what they pay their contributors.
Last edit: 24 May 2019 12:36 by charlest.

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24 May 2019 12:37 - 24 May 2019 12:47 #297604 by ubarose
@Sag

#2 isn't what he said directly. He's presenting things in a way to facilitate the discussion so that people come to that conclusion on their own. As I said above, this video is not only a response to the public discussion that has been going on among consumers of board game media and reviews all over the internet, but also reflects the behind the scenes discussion.

Shellhead made a comment, IIRC, that is should be rather simple and straight forward, but behind the scenes it is like the f*ing UN.

The biggest issue is that there is NO signifiacnt ad revenue for any board game sites or channels anymore. All the marketing money is going to Facebook and Google. Even large well-established sites and channels can no longer attract advertisers.

Couple that with the fact that Asmodee has consumed all the small publishers who once bought ads and provided review copies. Then add in the proliferation of outlets. It's hard to even get those free review copies. And it is difficult ot even break even without identifying an alternative source of income.

Those alternative sources of income pretty much boil down to doing content creation, putting out the begging bowl (Patreon, Donation Buttons - ours is at the bottom of the page BTW and you can set up reoccurring small payments and add a note if you want it to go to Josh & Al) or paying out of pocket yourself.
Last edit: 24 May 2019 12:47 by ubarose.
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24 May 2019 12:38 #297605 by hotseatgames
Not like I didn't already know this, but clearly it's more profitable to talk about games than it is to make them.

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24 May 2019 12:50 #297606 by Gary Sax

hotseatgames wrote: "Only" $700 a month!??!?!


Right, but reviewers in the older media critic environment (that I preferred, ymmv) made enough money to actually make a living reviewing and critiquing things without having to do pay to play advertising, etc. It takes a lot of (pre tax, pre-patreon cut) patreon money to make an actual living. I get that so very wrong about games isn't a full time endevour so 700 a month with 120 patreons seems like a lot, but I'm pretty sure that Heavy Cardboard and a lot of the other versions of this are.

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