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Thoughts on SW: Legions?

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24 Jan 2018 02:24 #261915 by Colorcrayons
"In my experience if its not one of these main lines you can maybe get one or two other people interested and that usually results in a one off game or two and then back to the safety of the rule set that everyone else plays. I'm sure people into CCGs feel that way about Magic hogging all the players other than their niche group. Damn it I want to play SAGA, Dracula's America, Rogue Planet, and Fistful of Kung Fu. It's a lot more fun when other people are building forces to battle you, not just you providing both sides. Even the smaller games with backing from GW like Blood Bowl, Necro, Shadow War, etc. seem to have a tough time maintaining any momentum."

This is my experience as well, with both types of games. We all only have so much time to play lifestyle games, even if you're in your teens.

The nineties taught me that lesson. So many ccgs were being put out after the dollars from WotC we're seen rolling in. Everyone played magic, and then at least one or maybe two niche ccgs that they wish were the main games everyone else played. Mine was Mythos and Blood Wars (d&d ccg that was set in planescape).

Same rang true for tabletop minis games. 40k 3rd seemed the defacto game. Everything else was just a chore to convince anyone else to play, because... it is an actual chore to play another game.

I was able to get a local group to start playing GWs War of the Ring massed battle game, whose 30+ members I view as nothing short of a miracle and will likely never be able to do so again. It was nice to be the tastemaker for once.

So many good games zoom by unnoticed, or noticed but unplayed because you're honest with your own checkbook and realize you'd never get to play them more than twice if you're lucky.

I think why At-43 was sooo attractive to me (besides the great story and art design) was I didn't have to sit down to hobby if I didn't want to. I could crack open a box and immediately play. And not just play any old wargame, but play a rather well designed game with interleaved turn structure in an era choked to death by UGOIGO. Man, rest in peace Rackham.

I actually could play that game and it wasn't a chore before playing. Thanks for helping to kill that, FFG. *Middle finger emote*

XWing was a short obsession before the fun murdering and competitive neckbeards ruined anything casual about it around here.

I'm yammering now. I take my leave.

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24 Jan 2018 06:15 #261919 by Msample
Replied by Msample on topic Thoughts on SW: Legions?
Speaking of FFG and soon to be abandoned minis lines, don’t they have A Game of Thrones one in the pipeline?
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24 Jan 2018 08:49 - 24 Jan 2018 09:05 #261922 by Mr. White
Replied by Mr. White on topic Thoughts on SW: Legions?

Jackwraith wrote: And, in the end, I don't know that creating a great setting is a necessary point for a game designer, is it? How many Knizia games had themes pasted on to brilliant mechanics? Nobody gave a shit that T&E or Ra or Modern Art or Samurai or Blue Moon or even Lord of the Rings barely had any connection between game and setting. Is Knizia a failure for having been unable to come up with a backdrop for one game that could be pasted on all of his other designs?


www.nohighscores.com/2014/09/18/cracked-...zia-master-of-theme/

Regarding themes (or settings) in games....I dunno. As a lifelong 'Ameritrasher' they always seemed sort of important to me. They probably even covered up a lot of poor rules. I mean, When wrecking Stallone Block or arresting Judge Death for selling comics, I never once thought "Damn...these rules suck". I always enjoyed hunting the traitor down on Nu-Earth, questing for Talismans or exploring Dragonfire Castle...no matter how long or short those games went...or if they were even fair to the player or not. I could care less. I know folks think those GW games had bad mechanics or byzantine rules, but I suppose the settings actually were enough to carry the day...because I didn't (and still don't) care.

And circling this back to FFG...it was the Warrior Knights remake that had me starting to reconsider their designs (their handling of Wings of Glory -> Xwing sealed the termination of our relationship). FFG WK is actually more difficult to play with its phases within phases and boatload of chits, than the simpler GW edition. Even if the GW edition was harsher on the player (and it is!) and very random it is far more fun to play. I'll take die roll resolution over convoluted stage card play all day, every day.

I also wonder how much setting did or didn't boost (at least initial) sales of Chaos in the Old World. I'd wager setting had something to do with getting it on people's radar. I think this is why you see people bemoan FFGs settings over and over. Many seem to like their games fine...just wish there were more compelling worlds to game them in.
Last edit: 24 Jan 2018 09:05 by Mr. White.

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24 Jan 2018 09:06 #261924 by charlest
Replied by charlest on topic Thoughts on SW: Legions?

Msample wrote: Speaking of FFG and soon to be abandoned minis lines, don’t they have A Game of Thrones one in the pipeline?


That's CMON. Had very little traction for one of their Kickstarters and a lot of people not too high on the demo.
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24 Jan 2018 09:11 - 24 Jan 2018 10:23 #261925 by Mr. White
Replied by Mr. White on topic Thoughts on SW: Legions?

Colorcrayons wrote: This is my experience as well, with both types of games. We all only have so much time to play lifestyle games, even if you're in your teens.


Absolutely. I used to try and get folks into other, oddball titles outside of the main minis lines. Most recent being a three year push with Dreadball. And I almost, fatally, tried a big push with a Fistful of Kung Fu. I have the rules, but I saw a lot of effort going into building up a Final Fight/Streets of Rage-like table top only to be played once...maybe?

No more. I'm 43 now. There are things I've always wanted to do with my minis games (have 100% of my collection painted. have a cool terrain table. run a deep campaign game) I'm giving up on trying to seek out 'the best' or 'the unique' and going with the easily accessible so i can focus on these other, more important to me, goals.

GWs new approach with AoS has actually worked in my favor. By allowing the game to scale from almost any point level, I don't need to get into 150+ model block armies. I can play AoS with 12-15. No different than with mordhiem or necromunda. Except now, there's no lack of support or story. GW is providing that on a monthly basis. I just need focus on my personal hobby goals. The games, settings, support, availability, player base, etc will all be there with no work on my end. Their handling of their boardgames also works for me. If shadespire ever gets discontinued...guess what happens to those models...into my AoS armies and WHQ games they go. Perfect.
Last edit: 24 Jan 2018 10:23 by Mr. White.

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24 Jan 2018 09:12 #261926 by Da Bid Dabid

Jackwraith wrote: This same group that didn't like Rex/Dune is split between players who loved Twilight Imperium 3 and those who detested it. Who's "right" there?


Obviously the people who loved TI.

Jackwraith wrote: You said you had fun playing 3rd Ed. 40K. I thought it sucked compared to 2nd, 3,5, and 4. They cleared up the panoply of rules from 2nd, but they drained the game of all of its color and made Chaos into a walking joke until the new codex that basically introduced 3.5 and made all of the units that no one would touch, like Obliterators and Possessed, actually functional. Remember Terminators at the start of 3rd when they basically disappeared from the table because of the proliferation of plasma? World famous game designer Jervis Johnson's response: "Learn how to use them better!" Then, when sales of the models tanked, he said: "Oh. Well. How about a 5+I save?" "But, wait!", we all said. "Aren't the rules already perfect?" Of course not. The only really positive thing about 3rd Ed. was the introduction of the Dark Eldar. I learned to use them to devastating effect when everyone in my area thought they were a complete waste of time. And half the codex WAS a complete waste of time. We sorted out the upgrades to all of the Wych units with the studio on their message board. But if you believe that the rules are great as released, as with debacles like Dungeonquest (a game I know that we significantly disagree over), then you'd end up believing that DE were either useless or monochromatic (i.e. only as good as the number of Dark Lances you could stuff in an army. Monochromatic? Dark Lances are black? Get it? Never mind.)


This makes sense as 3rd was my introduction to the game, fluff, etc. I clearly view it with a hint of rose colored glasses. I don't remember a lot of the complaints, which seem to be good points and can't compare to 4th and 5th because I didn't play then. High school kid wanting to smash models against each other is about where I was at, not looking into game design or being connected to the studio on their message board. I do remember DE release happening and being exciting, I actually have that codex, but never picked up any models myself or saw them on the table. Giant models in 40k I'm also not a fan, save that for apocalypse, but whatever floats each players boat I can roll with. Hobby games should make you happy.

Jackwraith wrote: But that doesn't mean I think that anything they did in the past is the "golden era" that makes their current output so inferior because, man, there were a LOT of fucking mistakes in the past.


I couldn't agree more, same thing applies to FFG mentioned before. Condemning or praising a company for any single time frame of output is pretty silly. Stretch that timeline out and likely the dips and recoveries balance out.

Jackwraith wrote: Consequently, I don't think anyone's preference of game makes them an idiot or a genius, quite honestly.


Completely agree. Hopefully my original post was seen as the joke it was meant to be. For me games are not things of serious consequence, I know some folks here view them as art, etc. but for the most part they are my excuse to crack open a few beers and hang with friends.
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24 Jan 2018 09:15 #261927 by Jackwraith
Replied by Jackwraith on topic Thoughts on SW: Legions?

Colorcrayons wrote: And not just play any old wargame, but play a rather well designed game with interleaved turn structure in an era choked to death by UGOIGO.


This is why I say that Epic Armageddon was the best game GW ever produced. The interwoven turn structure was (and still is) awesome. You actually had to make multiple tactical choices in the middle of the action based on which unit might still be able to fire. The one thing I miss most about playing GW games is Epic. (Well, OK, and the rats...)

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24 Jan 2018 09:24 #261930 by Jackwraith
Replied by Jackwraith on topic Thoughts on SW: Legions?

Mr. White wrote: And circling this back to FFG...it was the Warrior Knights remake that had me starting to reconsider their designs (their handling of Wings of Glory -> Xwing sealed the termination of our relationship). FFG WK is actually more difficult to play with its phases within phases and boatload of chits, than the simpler GW edition. Even if the GW edition was harsher on the player (and it is!) and very random it is far more fun to play. I'll take die roll resolution over convoluted stage card play all day, every day.


No argument. FFG is not perfect. I was getting kind of annoyed with their "card-based combat" trend and similar things around that time, too. And I think setting absolutely encouraged the sales of Chaos in the Old World. It's why I bought it and why I was able to convince two WHFB friends to sit down and play it. We loved it and it's been a regular ever since. But what I mean in responding to MB was that the lack of a game world that can be stretched across different games isn't the sign of a poor designer. It just means that they haven't struck a chord with this or that audience. I'll say again as I have many times before: I like Terrinoth. It is bog-standard generic fantasy world, but I really enjoy the fact that I can play the same heroes and fight the same monsters in a half-dozen different games. What helps that appreciation is that I think Runebound is better than Talisman, I had hours upon hours of fun with both versions of Descent, I think Rune Age is the best and most combat-oriented deckbuilder I've ever played, and Battlelore 2nd Ed. is a game that I will still be playing two decades from now. All of those were great games. Do you imagine stories of what happens in Zanaga when the adventurers aren't there? Probably not. But I've got a few thousand books in my house (and many unwritten of my own) if I want that kind of thing. I'll never suggest that it's NON-essential. I spent a lot of time dreaming up backgrounds and character names for my various Fantasy and 40K armies (my avatar is indicative of one of them) and I think it's great to be sparked in that way because it creates deeper involvement in the game and hobby. But I don't consider FFG to be a failure because they haven't developed something like that, anymore than I consider GW to be a failure for putting out a ton of shitty games with great background.

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24 Jan 2018 09:31 - 24 Jan 2018 09:34 #261933 by Mr. White
Replied by Mr. White on topic Thoughts on SW: Legions?
Yeah, I wouldn't say 'failure' is the right word overall. At least from my POV. I don't think they're a failure at all. Their in-house designs just aren't for me. Not biggie.

However, the 'failure' tag may apply to the OPs question and that is...their handling of their tabletop minis lines. As mentioned many times, they have a long list of titles that finally ended up in the Christmas sale. X-wing being the one big outlier. So, what is their win/loss record in this area? 1-15? I dunno.

Spartan didn't learn this lesson and without any boardgames to keep cash coming in, they folded up. Mantic is crapping out kickstarters after kickstarters as soon as they land a new IP (now Hellboy...oh...boy) but their track record seems to be getting worse and worse.

It does seem if you want to move into this arena successfully you can't have a million other titles in the cooker. PP only had WM for many years, then the 100% complementary Hordes. How many wargames are Wyrd putting out (would they be third in the minis company rankings? I dunno.)?

And this is why the whole GW comparison came up. Good rules or not, they are all in on their two games. The question of a player base or support is never there. I don't think we can say the same of FFGs attempts (even if they gave out free copies - Runewars).
Last edit: 24 Jan 2018 09:34 by Mr. White.

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24 Jan 2018 09:56 - 24 Jan 2018 10:10 #261938 by Mr. White
Replied by Mr. White on topic Thoughts on SW: Legions?
Kind of a side note, but I've recently begun to realize that having a physically published magazine may be more important than I ever thought. When I think back on the years playing GW games, the years that White Dwarf were great also coincided with me highly enjoying their games. when their mag was poor...eh, it felt like their games were lacking.

Even now. On months that I don't get in an AoS or BB game, getting in a new issue of WD charges me up to hobby and paint. Perhaps it allows the hype to continue on even if there isn't physical gaming going on? And recent issues of WD are fantastic with game rules and bits included again.

Thinking back to D&D too. The Dragon and Dungeon years were awesome! Many times if I couldn't meet with friends for a session, I could flip through Dragon for cool articles that would fire my imagination to play or read through Dungeon ...dungeons... and imagine what adventuring through them would be like. Seeing a new issue on the shelf alongside other national mags, made D&D feel relevant with a large community.

I dunno. Maybe the publications made the games feel more alive, but there's just something about having a mag to help with breadth and scope of a game. Maybe if FFG could settle some license and settings and publishing a magazine it could go a long way towards building up the lore of their games or articles could help wishful players (Runewars) keep on keeping on....

(EDIT: I think PP does a mag for their Iron Kingdoms titles as well and I suppose I'm referring to the lifestyle game/magazine connection.)
Last edit: 24 Jan 2018 10:10 by Mr. White.
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24 Jan 2018 09:56 #261939 by san il defanso
One thing GW has done with this latest round of editions is create different entry points. There's the big $150 box if you like (and it has a TON of stuff in it) but they'll also release a set for about half that, if you are less sure you want to commit. FFG has largely forced their players to make a $100 purchase (granted, that's MSRP) to get in the ground floor, and those products are often laced with elements that are essentially meaningless unless you get more products right away.

I don't have much insight into GW's starter sets, but my impression is that they are a little more standalone. At any rate, they seem to have way more focus. I could be mistaken though.

I don't think it's coincidence that X-Wing is the most successful, and also has the cheapest, most widely available core set.
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24 Jan 2018 10:01 - 24 Jan 2018 10:29 #261941 by Mr. White
Replied by Mr. White on topic Thoughts on SW: Legions?
I think that's a great point, Nate!

Both 40k and AoS have their $150 set, a ~$75 set, then even a ~$40 set. All viable options to get into the games with.

FFG's upfront asking price, along with their current minis game track record, is a tough combo to mentally hurtle.
Last edit: 24 Jan 2018 10:29 by Mr. White.

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24 Jan 2018 10:30 #261945 by san il defanso
Yeah, I think I'd consider a small set of Star Wars: Legions priced around $30. But unfortunately $100 is a hard pass.

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24 Jan 2018 10:34 - 24 Jan 2018 10:43 #261946 by Mr. White
Replied by Mr. White on topic Thoughts on SW: Legions?
What about a stand-alone rulebook that allowed you to use all the Star Wars Imperial Assault figs you already have?

FFG already has SW minis on the shelf. Why not get the Legion rules in those player's hands to help grow Legion's initial base with IA gamers?

To be fair, there may be a sold separately rulebook that I don't know about.

EDIT:...uh looks like FFG didn't set these two games to scale. Ooops...

Last edit: 24 Jan 2018 10:43 by Mr. White.

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24 Jan 2018 10:45 #261947 by edulis
Replied by edulis on topic Thoughts on SW: Legions?
That turned into a pretty big discussion. You all sort of weakened my excitement, made me think about whether I really want this game. Right now I think I'll still pick it up- maybe on a smaller scale and see where it goes. See if there are local people to play against. I enjoyed when X-wing first came out and we had some small tournaments and there was discussion and excitement about what might come next. The flame of X-wing sputtered in my town a few years ago, although I do occasionally organize a tournament and still play a lot of epic.

But, you know, I would also be okay with SW: Legions not taking off (ala x-wing). I have mostly kept up in X-wing, buying all the imperial releases and a smattering of rebels and scum. I don't attend tournaments on a regular basis anymore and when I organize one at the local store I almost always do some sort of theme that limits players or makes for less-meta builds. It would be great if SW: Legions started up some local tournaments and brought me the excitement and joy first discovering X-wing did, but I don't really have money, especially with a higher price point than X-wing, to play keep up with another game.

So if FFG released a few waves and then let it die. Then I could pick up whatever they release (Cheap?) throw it in a box and break it out a couple times a year and play it like I would Earth Reborn or numerous other self contain miniatures games. Maybe it dosen't need to be a lifestyle game. I have at least two guys in my regular gaming group that plan to pick it up. One is a huge SW fan so I will always have an opponent and we could pull it off the shelf whenever. Right off the same shelf where my Necromunda, Gorkamorka, Warmachine, Deadlands miniature game, Dark Millennium box, Inquisitor, Blood Bowl sit.

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