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Michael Barnes wrote: I played a game about a year or so ago at a shop with just some random ships against some more serious players. It was horrible. All these terms and conditions that I didn’t even know existed with my “OT waves only” stuff. It wasn’t fun. It was looking over tableaux and making sure not to forget to do something, and then being instructed by my opponent and observers about how I wasn’t doing things the done way.
This is where I bowed out on Star Fleet Battles years back, when the game became complicated to the point that I couldn't play casually. I just didn't know enough to not embarrass myself.
I've played X-Wing and have a solid understanding of the core system, but the entry barrier on it even for me is really high now. I can't imagine any of this upgrade is focused at attracting new people. This is for serious players to continue deeper into the lifestyle. That's fine for those of you that compete, and I suppose you don't blow $150 on upgrade kits unless you're seriously into the game. But this looks like one more piece of complication in a game where I'd need to do a fair dose of serious study and prep before showing up for open play at my local game store. Ain't gonna happen until all four kids are out of the house.
Sagrilarus wrote: I can't imagine any of this upgrade is focused at attracting new people.
I actually think that is a part of it. If a player was contemplating getting into the game it was rough, as you say. But now, it's a fresh start and you can slowly buy in as the new waves come out. Additionally, the early ships you buy should remain competitive due to this on the fly balancing in point adjustments via the app.
EDIT - also I found this pretty refreshing, honestly:
"Before buying those kits, you need to understand one critical change that we were excited to learn about with factions in Second Edition. If you buy all of the products for a single faction, you will have access to the full range of pilots and upgrades usable for that faction. No more buying ships from other factions in order to get the upgrades that you need! This means that you will need to buy one Conversion Kit for each faction you intend to fly."
Maybe too little too late, but still a good move.
Maybe that's the argument - the hardcore folks will have to pony up extra (and will) for the conversion kits, but the possible newbies like me aren't scared off by having to buy 6 years worth of ships at one time in order to be tournament-competitive. I know that back in the dawn of time, Wizards had to do that toType 2 (which they call something else now) so that I wasn't at the mercy of Mr. Suitcase.
Michael Barnes wrote: I was never quite sure why the fun part of X-Wing- flying around and blowing up iconic spaceships- was shunted to the side in favor of the dreadful parts. Pawing through piles and piles of upgrade cards to find maximum efficiencies, spamming the “best” ships, competitive builds...yuck. I feel the same way about Warhammer, but the weird thing is that Warhammer is more accessible and casual friendly than X-Wing is at this point.
The bloat is real. When you are buying a $50 ship to get an upgrade card for another ship...when there are all these different types of torpedoes and Astromechs and copilots and minuscule attachments...the scope of the game and it’s accessibility shift dramatically if you are not into the “meta” and constantly reviewing winning builds as each new product is released. It’s overwhelming at this point.
I played a game about a year or so ago at a shop with just some random ships against some more serious players. It was horrible. All these terms and conditions that I didn’t even know existed with my “OT waves only” stuff. It wasn’t fun. It was looking over tableaux and making sure not to forget to do something, and then being instructed by my opponent and observers about how I wasn’t doing things the done way.
I had a hell of a lot more fun playing with my son, using NO cards
I am very interested, actually, in the quick build cards. I can see a scenario where I get ahold of those, scale my collection down to fit one upgrade pack for each side, and sell off everything that would require any kind of additions purchases. If the quick build cards make the game more fun and easier to play casually with just enough upgrades to give a little detail, then it could bring the game back for me.
The funny thing about edition changes and revisions in games like Warhammer in particular is that it is actually the power gamers that get financially bludgeoned. The big 40k FAQ just hit, and I ain’t cryin’. But the people that are running lists with like 8 Flyrants and a motorpool of Plagueburst Crawlers are. Because they now have to cap their maximum number of units. With X-Wing, it’s going to be the power list builders that get punished...but they are also the ones least likely to abandon the game.
Honestly, once Armada became a thing I cannot understand why they didn't significantly curtail the complexity of X-Wing. Armada (aside from being the better game to begin with) can handle the bloat much more effectively, both from a mechanical and thematic perspective.
Michael Barnes wrote: I was never quite sure why the fun part of X-Wing- flying around and blowing up iconic spaceships- was shunted to the side in favor of the dreadful parts. Pawing through piles and piles of upgrade cards to find maximum efficiencies, spamming the “best” ships, competitive builds...yuck.
This. Its basically akin to deck building in a CCG. The actual skill element shifts from flying and tactics to pre planning ahead of the game. The seat of the pants feel is lost. As Matt DP said upthread, the game can be decided before the first shot is fired.
The think the change in turrets (and other changes) will help bring the game back to more about skill vs. squad building.
But even in the early days of x-wing...if you loaded your ships up too much with junk, that would kill you in list building. The mantra of 'don't fill all your slots' was always what people told new players, up until the more recent era of super combos. It has always been this way.
MattDP wrote: As someone who followed the GW train for years, this hasn't really been true in practice. When a new edition came out, it would come with a bunch of free army lists that let you use your existing figures with the new rules. When each faction got its own book, however, things were often jigged to make it difficult to continue using your older models. Equipment options would change, popular units would become obsolete and powerful new ones would be added.
Buying new models for 40k is a *choice*. Getting the conversion kit for your old ship is a *must*. And with 40k, the 8th ed is radically different from the last one, and they made sure that the transition is made as painless as possible. Compare that with X-Wing, with much less change, but you *have* to buy to play it.
A little comparison.
8th Ed 40k
Core Rules - Free
An Index - $25, which covers 4-5 armies each. Buying 5 indexes will cover ALL the 40k armies, no matter how many models you have.
$25 to play the 8th Edition.
Then, you may want to buy new models, and new codices. A codex will cost you $40-60 (can't remember), and you must have it. A store probably have the core rulebook for your perusal.
2nd Ed X-Wing
Core Set - $40
A Conversion Set - $50. Most people will have both Imperial & Rebel. That's $100. And if you have a big collection, or a TIE Swarm. You shell out more.
$90 to play the 2nd Edition, and that's only a portion of your collection! If you run a TIE Swarm, then you need 2 of the Conversion Set even with the extra 2 TIEs from the core set.
Then you may want the gimmicky X-Wing.
There's no denying that you'll spend more in the end with 40k (and other minis), but generally, since they recognize this, the must buys for any edition change is quite minimal.
edulis wrote: I was thinking about the conversion kits. I mostly play imperials and would need two kits to convert all my ships, but if I pick up one rebel and one imperial chances are good that I can trade my unneeded rebel stuff for an extra bomber or interceptor or whatever I need. maybe.... hopefully?
I don't play X-Wing, but won't most players be in the same situation with the conversion kits? Everyone needs the extra bomber and interceptor and has no need of the extra decimators?
In other positive news, there was a stream video where additional conversion kits for later waves will be released. So in theory new cards and dials might be available for each new wave in a conversion kit rather than having to repurchase models.
I am actually pretty excited about this. On the other hand, first edition plays just fine and will continue to be a great game for people who don't want to switch. I still play first edition Fury of Dracula and Game of Thrones, so long as you don't want to play in FFG Tournaments your old X-wing stuff still works.