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A beginner's Warhammer 40K questions

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10 Feb 2010 18:22 #55284 by generalpf
Okay so I bought the Assault on Black Reach set and have played four games so far, in each one the Space Marines were routed by the Orks. Figured out some things we were doing wrong (alarmingly, very small things with a very big impact), but have a few questions left.

I feel like the next game could go in the Space Marine's favour, which I originally expected since they have 585 points vs. the Orks' 450 points.

The weird thing is the ease in which the three Deffkoptas (135 points) can take out the Dreadnought (115 points).

A Dreadnought can move 6" and fire its weapons or move 12" and only fire one. So it's not going to close with the Deffkoptas that can move 12" and fire their Rokkit Launchaz at a range of 24". So they ain't gettin' surprised by the Dreadnought.

So when the Deffkoptaz fire at the Dreadnought, they roll 3D6 and hit on a 5+ (BS 5). That means one will hit. They are twin-linked so they even get to re-roll the two misses, meaning they'll hit with one or two. The Rokkit Launchaz have a Strength of 8 and the Dreadnought has front armour of 12, meaning the Deffkoptaz need to roll a 4 to get a glancing hit or a 5+ to totally hit it. In our experience that happens every time! Once the hit is scored, the vehicle damage table is rolled upon and the Dreadnought is usually destroyed.

Is it really this simple? In every game we've played -- and maybe the Ork player has been a bit lucky -- the Deffkoptaz fly in and destroy the Dreadnought every. single. time.

Also, can you use a Flamer in close combat? If not, does the model with the Flamer get 0 attacks in close combat?

Thanks.

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10 Feb 2010 18:56 #55286 by Stephen Avery
Ya got me but I'm almost done painting my set. I went with the same color scheme as the glossy. I was complaining bitterly about how good the professional pieces look which is causing me to go back again and again over the details.

I'm anxious to play- sounds like I should take the orks :D:D:D

Steve"Mor Plastik"Avery

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10 Feb 2010 22:41 #55301 by Rliyen
generalpf wrote:

Okay so I bought the Assault on Black Reach set and have played four games so far, in each one the Space Marines were routed by the Orks. Figured out some things we were doing wrong (alarmingly, very small things with a very big impact), but have a few questions left.

I feel like the next game could go in the Space Marine's favour, which I originally expected since they have 585 points vs. the Orks' 450 points.

The weird thing is the ease in which the three Deffkoptas (135 points) can take out the Dreadnought (115 points).

A Dreadnought can move 6" and fire its weapons or move 12" and only fire one. So it's not going to close with the Deffkoptas that can move 12" and fire their Rokkit Launchaz at a range of 24". So they ain't gettin' surprised by the Dreadnought.

So when the Deffkoptaz fire at the Dreadnought, they roll 3D6 and hit on a 5+ (BS 5). That means one will hit. They are twin-linked so they even get to re-roll the two misses, meaning they'll hit with one or two. The Rokkit Launchaz have a Strength of 8 and the Dreadnought has front armour of 12, meaning the Deffkoptaz need to roll a 4 to get a glancing hit or a 5+ to totally hit it. In our experience that happens every time! Once the hit is scored, the vehicle damage table is rolled upon and the Dreadnought is usually destroyed.

Is it really this simple? In every game we've played -- and maybe the Ork player has been a bit lucky -- the Deffkoptaz fly in and destroy the Dreadnought every. single. time.

Also, can you use a Flamer in close combat? If not, does the model with the Flamer get 0 attacks in close combat?

Thanks.


Question #1: Short answer, yes. That's nothing compared to what I had with Exterminator v. Dreads. They pop like metal balloons. Strength 7 v. A 12. Granted, the Tank's a wee more expensive, but it has a twin linked autocannon, two shots with a reroll. The number of rolls to hit is key to see why the dread goes down. Hell, my Imp Guard army wasn't a SAFH and people learned to respect them.

With regards to the Flamer issue, each miniature has a basic attack skill and strength. Since the Flamer can't be used in combat, the mini uses their basic attack strength. Essentially, they use the Flamer as an overgrown club. So, an IG with a flamer has one attack and hits at their S3. So, against a Space Pansy, er, Marine they would need a 4+ to hit and 5+ to wound. In other words, use the autohit function of the Flamer to score as many hits on a squad as possible.

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11 Feb 2010 00:44 #55305 by generalpf
Rliyen wrote:

Question #1: Short answer, yes. That's nothing compared to what I had with Exterminator v. Dreads. They pop like metal balloons. Strength 7 v. A 12. Granted, the Tank's a wee more expensive, but it has a twin linked autocannon, two shots with a reroll. The number of rolls to hit is key to see why the dread goes down. Hell, my Imp Guard army wasn't a SAFH and people learned to respect them.

With regards to the Flamer issue, each miniature has a basic attack skill and strength. Since the Flamer can't be used in combat, the mini uses their basic attack strength. Essentially, they use the Flamer as an overgrown club. So, an IG with a flamer has one attack and hits at their S3. So, against a Space Pansy, er, Marine they would need a 4+ to hit and 5+ to wound. In other words, use the autohit function of the Flamer to score as many hits on a squad as possible.

Thanks for the great explanation.

So I take it when a unit's stats are listed, it refers to a model wielding a single weapon? For instance the Ork Boyz each have a Choppa and Slugga and they are listed as A 2. Thus they really get 3 attacks in close combat because they are wielding two weapons?

We had a lot of confusion about how many attacks were allowed per model in the Tactical Squad, especially considering one guy's got a missile launcher, one guy's got a flamer, 7 guys have bolt pistols and one guy's a sergeant with a sword and no gun.

Thanks man.

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11 Feb 2010 02:33 #55308 by The Expanding Man
The key to a great game of 40k is terrain, terrain and more terrain. I'm talking about at least 25% of the gaming table being taken up with terrain.

You need big stuff (big hills, buildings, etc) to block line of sight.

The key to playing a dreadnaut is to rely on it's close combat strengths, rather than a shooting unit. In close combat, dreadnauts are pretty hard to defeat.

During set up, position your dreadnaut so that line of sight is blocked by terrain for at least the first turn. Position something else so that it can fire on the deft copters if they are brave enough to start moving into a position to try and take out the dreadnaut. A suitably equipped unit of troops will do the job here, and should survive at least 1 shooting attack from deft copters. One thing in marines favour is an excellent armour save on troop units (3+).


If you are planning to expand your army, make one of your first purchases a drop pod, which allows you to drop your dreadnaut anywhere you like on the table.

40k is primarily a game of list building and deployment. The AOBR box set removes list building from the equation, so you really only have deployment left. This is where terrain becomes crucial. Just use some plastic tubs or something to represent terrain and block line of sight until you get some more realistic looking terrain.

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11 Feb 2010 12:33 #55328 by panzerattack
I guess sometimes having a small pool of models to choose from can throw the points a bit out of whack too. I don't know the stats of the Ork choppers but I'm guessing they've got some good weapons on them but are a bit fragile themselves. If you were playing a bigger game of 40K you'd probably find that the marine player would have a fair few long range but cheap weapons that could take that unit out. In that case you'd have to be a lot more careful with them - yes, they hit hard but they can also be taken out easily.

On the other hand, a unit like a dreddie is going to be pretty solid and dependable no matter the size of the game - good at hitting things, good guns, reasonable armour.

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11 Feb 2010 12:43 #55330 by Rliyen
generalpf wrote:

Rliyen wrote:

Thanks for the great explanation.

So I take it when a unit's stats are listed, it refers to a model wielding a single weapon? For instance the Ork Boyz each have a Choppa and Slugga and they are listed as A 2. Thus they really get 3 attacks in close combat because they are wielding two weapons?

We had a lot of confusion about how many attacks were allowed per model in the Tactical Squad, especially considering one guy's got a missile launcher, one guy's got a flamer, 7 guys have bolt pistols and one guy's a sergeant with a sword and no gun.

Thanks man.


With regards to the Orks, if the base A is two, then they receive two attacks. If they are armed in the close combat weapon/pistol fashion, they receive yet another attack. So, yes, Boyz get three attacks if armed with a CCW and a pistol.

For the Tactical Squad, they will get A's equal to the stat, even the Missile Launcher will have a base number of attacks (remember launcher = club). Now, I haven't picked up the newest edition of WH40k, and I know they made some changes to charge rules and locked units, but I do not think they changed the way the number of attacks are calculated. If the guys armed with pistols are not armed with chainswords or another type of CCW (even another pistol), then they would not receive an additional attack, just their base number. The Sergeant armed with only a sword and no backup weapon will just do his base number of A's , excluding bonus attacks for charging (if they still give that bonus. It was an another A to the standard # of attacks the model has, but it was only good for the round in which the charge was made.

Hope this helps, guy.

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11 Feb 2010 12:54 #55333 by Rliyen
panzerattack wrote:

I guess sometimes having a small pool of models to choose from can throw the points a bit out of whack too. I don't know the stats of the Ork choppers but I'm guessing they've got some good weapons on them but are a bit fragile themselves. If you were playing a bigger game of 40K you'd probably find that the marine player would have a fair few long range but cheap weapons that could take that unit out. In that case you'd have to be a lot more careful with them - yes, they hit hard but they can also be taken out easily.

On the other hand, a unit like a dreddie is going to be pretty solid and dependable no matter the size of the game - good at hitting things, good guns, reasonable armour.


Agreed. I have no doubt the choppers are heavy hitters, but would be swatted out of the sky like flies when going against certain army makeups. If they have a Toughness value (like Space Marine bikes) only and not an Armor value (like a Dread or a Leman Russ), then they're that much easier to take out. Fire Support Squads of any stripe would handle them easily. If they do have an armor value, then they would have to worry about models that have the ability to glance them or penetrate the armor outright.

In bigger games, you would have to be judicious with the use of them. They would probably be best served in hit and run attacks, going after units that had little to no chance to harm them. If they're the type of model that is allowed to move after shooting, then pop up attacks are what they're made for.

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11 Feb 2010 14:03 #55347 by generalpf
Rliyen wrote:

With regards to the Orks, if the base A is two, then they receive two attacks. If they are armed in the close combat weapon/pistol fashion, they receive yet another attack. So, yes, Boyz get three attacks if armed with a CCW and a pistol.

For the Tactical Squad, they will get A's equal to the stat, even the Missile Launcher will have a base number of attacks (remember launcher = club). Now, I haven't picked up the newest edition of WH40k, and I know they made some changes to charge rules and locked units, but I do not think they changed the way the number of attacks are calculated. If the guys armed with pistols are not armed with chainswords or another type of CCW (even another pistol), then they would not receive an additional attack, just their base number. The Sergeant armed with only a sword and no backup weapon will just do his base number of A's , excluding bonus attacks for charging (if they still give that bonus. It was an another A to the standard # of attacks the model has, but it was only good for the round in which the charge was made.

Hope this helps, guy.

That's how I thought it worked, thanks for the confirmation.

The Sergeant's stats are listed separately in the block, he has A 3 anyhow.

I'm a bit cheesed about the way Assault on Black Reach is billed as "everything you need to play is in the box". For one thing, nothing in the included books tells you that you can split the Ork Boyz and Tactical Marines into two units each. The codex tells you that, but that's a separate purchase. Moving 20 Ork Boyz around as one unit is annoying. (Awesome if you can get 'em to Assault, though.)

One quick question, I'm beginning to understand that if close combat is imminent, you want to be the assaultER, not the assaultEE, right? Then your unit gets +1 attack/model rather than the other guy.

40K is awesome.

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11 Feb 2010 14:05 #55348 by generalpf
Rliyen wrote:

Agreed. I have no doubt the choppers are heavy hitters, but would be swatted out of the sky like flies when going against certain army makeups. If they have a Toughness value (like Space Marine bikes) only and not an Armor value (like a Dread or a Leman Russ), then they're that much easier to take out. Fire Support Squads of any stripe would handle them easily. If they do have an armor value, then they would have to worry about models that have the ability to glance them or penetrate the armor outright.

In bigger games, you would have to be judicious with the use of them. They would probably be best served in hit and run attacks, going after units that had little to no chance to harm them. If they're the type of model that is allowed to move after shooting, then pop up attacks are what they're made for.

The Deffkoptaz are treated as jetbikes so they have T 4 value, not armor ratings. They have W 2 which makes them tough to clear out.

I am wondering if the Space Marines get more points than the Orks in this set to balance the game out, I read somewhere else that Orks have the advantage in low-point games like this.

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11 Feb 2010 16:54 #55379 by Rliyen
generalpf wrote:

Rliyen wrote:

With regards to the Orks, if the base A is two, then they receive two attacks. If they are armed in the close combat weapon/pistol fashion, they receive yet another attack. So, yes, Boyz get three attacks if armed with a CCW and a pistol.

For the Tactical Squad, they will get A's equal to the stat, even the Missile Launcher will have a base number of attacks (remember launcher = club). Now, I haven't picked up the newest edition of WH40k, and I know they made some changes to charge rules and locked units, but I do not think they changed the way the number of attacks are calculated. If the guys armed with pistols are not armed with chainswords or another type of CCW (even another pistol), then they would not receive an additional attack, just their base number. The Sergeant armed with only a sword and no backup weapon will just do his base number of A's , excluding bonus attacks for charging (if they still give that bonus. It was an another A to the standard # of attacks the model has, but it was only good for the round in which the charge was made.

Hope this helps, guy.

That's how I thought it worked, thanks for the confirmation.

The Sergeant's stats are listed separately in the block, he has A 3 anyhow.

I'm a bit cheesed about the way Assault on Black Reach is billed as "everything you need to play is in the box". For one thing, nothing in the included books tells you that you can split the Ork Boyz and Tactical Marines into two units each. The codex tells you that, but that's a separate purchase. Moving 20 Ork Boyz around as one unit is annoying. (Awesome if you can get 'em to Assault, though.)

One quick question, I'm beginning to understand that if close combat is imminent, you want to be the assaultER, not the assaultEE, right? Then your unit gets +1 attack/model rather than the other guy.

40K is awesome.


Yes, getting on the receiving end is BAD, especially Ork (charge) v. Imperial Guard (run away!) or Space Marine (charge) v. Imperial Guard (Are we boned? Yep, we're boned.) The charged unit does not get +1 A. The other thing to take into account is cover and initiative. Higher I goes first (naturally), but even if you have higher I than your opponent and their units are in cover they get to strike first for the first round. The only equalizer I'm familiar with is frag grenades (everybody goes at the same time). There are probably more equalizers, but I only specialize in Eldar and Imperial Guard (Both shooty but have their own strengths and weaknesses. For beginning players, Space Marines are great. Very forgiving if your tactics aren't up to snuff. But, I like a challenge (and I'm also 2nd Ed IG Alma Mater). So, I play the intermediate armies: The Coneheads and the Flashlight Brigade.

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11 Feb 2010 17:19 #55384 by Rliyen
generalpf wrote:

Rliyen wrote:

The Deffkoptaz are treated as jetbikes so they have T 4 value, not armor ratings. They have W 2 which makes them tough to clear out.

I am wondering if the Space Marines get more points than the Orks in this set to balance the game out, I read somewhere else that Orks have the advantage in low-point games like this.


If that is the case, then the Deffkoptaz would be VERY fragile against massive fusillades from even Lasguns. Another weakness (since it has T instead of Armor like a vehicle) is that if they're hit by weapons that are twice the T of the model, the model DIES if they fail the armor save; regardless of how many wounds it has. Once again, check your rulebook to see if that is still true, albeit that's been around since at least 3rd and I doubt they changed that rule, either.

The reason why I say the above about the coptaz is just basic statistics. Granted, IG's have a BS of 3 and S3 weapon; but what they like in quality they make up in QUANTITY. If I have a 10 man squad firing at a Copta with guns, you can estimate at least half will hit. Then, from those hitting, halving it again will give an expectation of wounding. It's not an exact science, but it tends to work as a rule of thumb. It gets worse when a copta is confronted by a multiple firing weapon, such as a Heavy Bolter. It rolls three dice to hit (4+ with an IG manning it), but would wound the copta on a 3+. If the copta has a save of 4+ or worse, it's toast because the AP value of the bolter is 4. A Lascannon hit and wound would make the copta a stain and a memory. The cannon is a one shot, but has a S 2x that of the Copta, not to mention AP2.

Of course, I'm talking about earlier edition rules (3rd and 4th). I read the design notes for 5th and saw that they ACTUALLY made improvements on certain parts of the game (for which I am impressed, give me a brown cube) when dealing with cover and LOS.

Too bad you live in Oh, Canada. I made a huge table for minis games that is unused and unloved since I have nobody who lives nearby that plays 40k, much less a gamestore to check out.

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11 Feb 2010 23:01 #55409 by generalpf
Rliyen wrote:

If that is the case, then the Deffkoptaz would be VERY fragile against massive fusillades from even Lasguns. Another weakness (since it has T instead of Armor like a vehicle) is that if they're hit by weapons that are twice the T of the model, the model DIES if they fail the armor save; regardless of how many wounds it has. Once again, check your rulebook to see if that is still true, albeit that's been around since at least 3rd and I doubt they changed that rule, either.

The reason why I say the above about the coptaz is just basic statistics. Granted, IG's have a BS of 3 and S3 weapon; but what they like in quality they make up in QUANTITY. If I have a 10 man squad firing at a Copta with guns, you can estimate at least half will hit. Then, from those hitting, halving it again will give an expectation of wounding. It's not an exact science, but it tends to work as a rule of thumb. It gets worse when a copta is confronted by a multiple firing weapon, such as a Heavy Bolter. It rolls three dice to hit (4+ with an IG manning it), but would wound the copta on a 3+. If the copta has a save of 4+ or worse, it's toast because the AP value of the bolter is 4. A Lascannon hit and wound would make the copta a stain and a memory. The cannon is a one shot, but has a S 2x that of the Copta, not to mention AP2.

Of course, I'm talking about earlier edition rules (3rd and 4th). I read the design notes for 5th and saw that they ACTUALLY made improvements on certain parts of the game (for which I am impressed, give me a brown cube) when dealing with cover and LOS.

Too bad you live in Oh, Canada. I made a huge table for minis games that is unused and unloved since I have nobody who lives nearby that plays 40k, much less a gamestore to check out.

The rule about instant death is still there, I hadn't considered that since the Tactical Squad missile launcher can launch a Krak missile with Strength 8.

What does T 4 (5) mean for the Deffkopta? When does T = 5?

Unfortunately there are no Lascannons in Assault on Black Reach.

How can anyone not play 40K with you, it's too awesome.

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12 Feb 2010 08:13 - 12 Feb 2010 08:14 #55418 by Rliyen
generalpf wrote:

The rule about instant death is still there, I hadn't considered that since the Tactical Squad missile launcher can launch a Krak missile with Strength 8.

What does T 4 (5) mean for the Deffkopta? When does T = 5?

Unfortunately there are no Lascannons in Assault on Black Reach.

How can anyone not play 40K with you, it's too awesome.


Ah, I see. The T5 is just like the bikes for the marines. The 5 in parenthesis is the coptas toughness. The reasoning is that the Ork is more protected by riding in it. So, it won't be insta killed, but still has to worry a lot about people with missile launchers (easier to score a wound, ignoring an armor save). Heavy Bolters a little (4+ to wound, possible negation of an armor save), and Lasguns (need a 6 in order to wound), as long as it's not a crapload of men at short range, not so much.

I have a dearth of gamers in my area. South of the Lake (Lake Pontchartrain), they do have like ONE game store, but I'm not driving 45 minutes to get to it to hang out with a bunch of assholes. The store in question sucks ass in the customer skill area, not to mention the general attitude of the denizens who reside there.
Last edit: 12 Feb 2010 08:14 by Rliyen.

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12 Feb 2010 10:26 #55427 by Columbob
Rliyen wrote:

generalpf wrote:

The rule about instant death is still there, I hadn't considered that since the Tactical Squad missile launcher can launch a Krak missile with Strength 8.

What does T 4 (5) mean for the Deffkopta? When does T = 5?


Ah, I see. The T5 is just like the bikes for the marines. The 5 in parenthesis is the coptas toughness. The reasoning is that the Ork is more protected by riding in it. So, it won't be insta killed, but still has to worry a lot about people with missile launchers (easier to score a wound, ignoring an armor save). Heavy Bolters a little (4+ to wound, possible negation of an armor save), and Lasguns (need a 6 in order to wound), as long as it's not a crapload of men at short range, not so much.


The Koptas are still auto-killed by a shot from the krak missile, because (in previous editions, never checked 5th) you use the model's base toughness to check for instant death. You still use T5 to check for wounds, but that doesn't change anything if the S of the weapon is at least 2 higher anyways.

So yeah, what I'd do in the marines' shoes, I'd target everything on the Deff koptas right off the bat, assuming you're in range. Does the dreadnought come with something else than a multi-melta? Otherwise that would be 6 storm bolters (12 S4 shots at 24") from the terminators and dreadnought, 1 multimelta (1 S8 at 24") for an autokill, 1 krak missile launcher (1 S8 at 48") and 7 bolters from the marines and another from the commander (8 S4 at 24"). So two chances of an autokill on the koptas, plus enough bolter shots to take down any survivors.

You could also try to keep your dreadnought in cover to make him hull down, that would convert any penetrating hits to glancing only.

About the attacks characteristic you were wondering about, every model is assumed to be equipped with a basic hand weapon, which is why each model usually has at least an A1 characteristic. Marines usually have a combat knife (I wouldn't use my launcher or flamer as a club, it probably wouldn't work properly after that), but they're living weapons themselves and a punch or chop from one of them could pulverize your skull anyways.

Check your marine sergeant model. Sure he's pointing with one of his arms, but he probably has a holster with a bolt pistol at his waist. So he gets +1 attack in close combat, another +1 if the unit charges. And he can shoot at short range.

Have fun!

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