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Why hate on the TT?

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16 Jun 2011 21:57 #98078 by Da Bid Dabid
After kinda getting back into the swing of playing Warhammer 40k over the last few weeks. It made me wonder why table top games aren't more popular to the ATers that hang out here. It seems for the most part people just don't really enjoy them as much. Not really sure why that is. I can see maybe not enjoying the painting/modeling aspect or perhaps the cost, but there are ways around those obstacles. Usually the games offer much the same appeal as AT board games at a bigger scale. Also there is all kinds of genres or complexities they can cover.

You want to run knights at elves - check. Shoot lasers at each other - check. Hunt down zombies with modern weapons - check.

The amount of strategy can range from dice fest 40k (just getting back into it I have no false conception about how "tactical" the rules are, I just wanna blow stuff up and laugh about it) to a very combo centric game of Warmachine to a super detailed space game where each shot and damage is tracked to specific areas.

So what keeps you out of playing tabletop games but doesn't stop you from dropping 100s of dollars and hours on board games? I find there is room for both.

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16 Jun 2011 22:00 #98079 by OldHippy
Replied by OldHippy on topic Re: Why hate on the TT?
Personally I'm lazy and want everything I need in just one box already put together and set up for me. I don't want to have to build multiple armies and balance them myself. Boardgames come in a all included little package ready to go.

IF I had time for both then hell yes but I just don't.
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16 Jun 2011 22:31 - 16 Jun 2011 22:33 #98080 by Dr. Mabuse
Replied by Dr. Mabuse on topic Re: Why hate on the TT?

JonJacob wrote: Personally I'm lazy and want everything I need in just one box already put together and set up for me. I don't want to have to build multiple armies and balance them myself. Boardgames come in a all included little package ready to go.

That sums it up for me as well. I would also throw CCGs on that pile too.

Case in point I started painting my Space Hulk Marines when it came out. I'm not close to finished and I've yet to prime the Genestealers.
Last edit: 16 Jun 2011 22:33 by Dr. Mabuse.

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16 Jun 2011 23:19 - 16 Jun 2011 23:21 #98081 by Sagrilarus
Replied by Sagrilarus on topic Re: Why hate on the TT?
Nobody even writes about the stuff here. I asked about Dystopian Wars and got two replies.

There's a whole subgroup out there that paints Celts and Turks and Byzantines and charges them at each other with wild abandon. Ancients rules have been pretty stable for a couple of decades now. As best I can tell no one here has ever played.

S.
Last edit: 16 Jun 2011 23:21 by Sagrilarus.

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16 Jun 2011 23:26 #98082 by evilgit
Replied by evilgit on topic Re: Why hate on the TT?
Well this is a board game site for one. Given there is more talk about music, video games and movies here than there is about minis games, which is a little odd.
But for me, it was the actual rules that put me off. I've not seen many with actual strategy. Unless you count min/maxing your army list, which I don't.
I do like Song of Blades and Heroes, Stargrunt and Piquet. And have a decent collection of painted 15mm fantasy and British Colonial figs but opponents are hard to find.
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17 Jun 2011 00:43 #98083 by Ancient_of_MuMu
It's quite simple. Minis games tend to be 'lifestyle' games where it is the only game you play. If you are playing a minis game you are more interested in going to forums which specifically discuss that game to discuss it, rather than discussing it here.

People here tend to play a multitude of games and don't have as much time for lifestyle games as they tend to be older and with more commitments.

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17 Jun 2011 01:19 #98085 by Mr MOTO
Replied by Mr MOTO on topic Re: Why hate on the TT?
Tunnels and Trolls is ok...

Count me in the camp that is too busy, lazy, whatever to invest in either 40k or other table top games. I'd play them fully set up at a friends or a convention any day and that gives me the luxury of not having to buy, paint, assemble and tear down.

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17 Jun 2011 05:29 - 17 Jun 2011 05:36 #98089 by Mr. White
Replied by Mr. White on topic Re: Why hate on the TT?
My group is a couple of weeks into a Mordheim campaign and we're having a blast. We've got Reiklanders and Middenhiemers (lap dogs of Ulric, the bastards are) trying to drag a cache of wyrdstone out of Mordheim, but the undead and skaven have secured it from us and are barreling on their way toward a victory. We're planning a longer campaign after this one as this short one is serving to bring old players up to speed and introduce the game to a few new guys.

Yes, these are lifestyle games. One of the guys in the group spent a weekend making a table for us to play on. Not a board. Not a piece of terrain. A table. Of course, we've built lots of terrain painted, our warbands, etc. It all looks fantastic in play. And we're playing this same game for consecutive weeks in a row. Seeing warbands rise and fall as well as getting a system down over multiple weeks is a breath of fresh air over the 'play it and leave it' nature of boardgames.

Not to say one is better than the other, but they are far different in scope. Likely why no one could speak to Sag's question about Dystopian Wars. Usually minis players are vested into one or two games/systems. No way do I have time to build and paint stuff for Mordheim as well as Dystopian Wars/Warmachine/etc. Only time and money for one. Boardgames, the barrier of entry is so much lower so we get a higher number of players to talk about them. What would be the point of discussing the nuances of Mordheim if no one here is playing it?

Boardgames, videogames, movies, music...all easy to consume and talk about. Minis games...need to go find others that have committed to the investment.
Last edit: 17 Jun 2011 05:36 by Mr. White.

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17 Jun 2011 08:43 #98093 by Matt Thrower

Da Bid Dabid wrote: I find there is room for both.


The short answer is that I don't. With a full time job and two kids and a non-gaming partner, I just don't. And that's pretty much it.

Seeing as I moved from being a full-time miniatures gamer to a full-time board gamer though I feel that I ought to answer more fully. Other than the time issue there are three keys reasons why I switched.

First GW are not a very user-friendly company. I don't like paying their ridiculous prices, and I don't like the manner in which things such as army book creep, banning non-GW models in store, major switches to army composition between editions, and the subtle division between models for more powerful troops being more expensive than core troops, encourage you to spend more than you should all the time. GW gamers complain about this stuff all the time and the response is always the same - if you don't like it, go play something else. So I did. And yes, I could have switched mini game systems but the time and cost of getting together an army of figures means that you have to find other gamers who are playing the same system as you - and that can be tough outside the GW family.

Second I've always been irritated by the way in which the majority of miniatures gamers treat painting and modelling as more important than the game. I don't mind painting and modelling but it's sometimes a chore, which gaming never is. And yet most clubs insist on or strongly encourage fully painted armies and tournaments hand out huge bonus points for painting and display which often determine the eventual winners.

Third - and this is kind of an extension of the above - I grew tired of the endless exploitable holes in mini gaming systems. When you're picking armies from a list - which is almost always the case with minis games - then there are always loopholes to exploit and people who will exploit them. There are also often a lot of rules errors or easy fixes in rules systems that never get looked at or improved because the figures are perceived as more important than the game. I'd rather play a relatively watertight, balanced set of rules.

It was actually Warhammer head honcho Gav Thorpe who persuaded me to switch. I started a thread on a warhammer forum complaining about these very three things and he popped up out of nowhere and said "sounds like you'd be better off playing board games". And I realised he was right.
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17 Jun 2011 12:24 #98094 by Ken B.
Replied by Ken B. on topic Re: Why hate on the TT?
Here's my resaons:


1. It's expensive
2. I can't paint worth shit
3. The imprecision in a game system that demands precision (i.e., the ruler) is maddening. "Did you bump him?" "No." "Ah, you're short a fraction of an inch." "No I'm not!" "You moved him too far!" "Nuh-uh!" "You didn't put him back down exactly as he was." Argggghhh


I think miniatures games in the hands of expert painters are beautiful, and I appreciate the you kill/I kill gameplay, but it's all wrapped in a package that I can't get into at all.

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17 Jun 2011 12:55 #98096 by Chapel
Replied by Chapel on topic Re: Why hate on the TT?
I played the heck out of 40K, Legions of Steel, and Mutant Chronicles about 10-15 years ago. I love playing table top mini games. I think the biggest reason I don't play any more is, well, I can't afford it. The price point for the hobby is just too high for me today.

Boardgaming is great in that I don't even have to buy all the games. I can buy a few and other in my group buy a few, and together we make a nice collection.

So I'll probably never buy another miniature game again in the foreseeable future. Unless GW comes way down in price. *holding breath*

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17 Jun 2011 13:09 #98097 by Sagrilarus
Replied by Sagrilarus on topic Re: Why hate on the TT?

MattDP wrote: First GW are not a very user-friendly company. I don't like paying their ridiculous prices . . .


If you're going to do tabletop I'd recommend getting off of a single-provider game and ruleset. I realize most here find Ancients a less-than-gripping theme, but if you're willing to play with War Elephants instead of Dreadnaughts you have a lot of choice and the pieces mix and match easily as long as your bases match.

MattDP wrote: Second I've always been irritated by the way in which the majority of miniatures gamers treat painting and modelling as more important than the game.


Go 15mm. Cheaper and no one can really paint them with all that much detail anyway. I suppose at that point you could just go with a wargame though.

MattDP wrote: Third - and this is kind of an extension of the above - I grew tired of the endless exploitable holes in mini gaming systems.


Ancients tend to have this happen less, because the battles are sims and the rulesets have been around for years. I suppose there's a turd in every group though. I personally like the free-form of measure-and-move but I got to watch a 25yo ass get up in the face of my 9yo boy over a placement issue. You need to find a reasonable set of players just like in any other social event.

Ancients (and Napoleonics and ECW/ACW) tend to attract men instead of boys and some of the issues you mention wane. But if you don't like the theme I suppose none of this matters.

S.

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17 Jun 2011 13:13 - 17 Jun 2011 13:20 #98098 by Mr. White
Replied by Mr. White on topic Re: Why hate on the TT?
Matt, Ken,

To be fair two of your three reasons (painting and rules) are only really problems if you're in the tourney scene. Playing at a buddy's house you can get away with any type of mini (painted or not) and you'll hardly ever get into rules arguments.

As far as cost, yeah it can be costly, but that can be managed by proxies, second hand minis, etc. Alternatively, play skirmish level games instead of army v army. Regardless, I'd wager boardgame players spend just as much, but on countless boardgames and expansions.

I do agree with a lot of the sentiment though. Minis can be time consuming. Personally, I don't like to play them too often anymore because I refuse to play with unpainted minis. I have OCD like that. I could care less what my opponent uses or if they're painted, but I want mine in their Sunday best.

For me, the upside has always been that all of the players are vested in the game. Bring out a boardgame and you have the game owner explaining the rules and knowing them a bit more than everyone else, or worse the guy complaining because he 'didn't know about that rule'. Then the game may or may not strike a chord with the players. Sometimes this leads to bored players or a $50 game that only gets played once or twice. With a minis game everyone decides to participate up front. So, all the players are expected to know the rules and contribute to the success of the campaign (be that narrative, providing terrain, etc). Ultimately, I find this stye of group investment a more rewarding game experience.

Plus, when fully realized look way cooler than any boardgame. :)

Last edit: 17 Jun 2011 13:20 by Mr. White.

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17 Jun 2011 13:28 #98100 by dysjunct
Replied by dysjunct on topic Re: Why hate on the TT?
I hate painting, don't want to pay for prepainted minis, and don't see much point in playing with unpainted minis -- at that point I'd just as soon use counters.

Plus if I'm going to invest a bunch of outside-game-time prepping for a game, I'd rather do it for an RPG than minis.

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17 Jun 2011 14:03 #98101 by Rliyen
Replied by Rliyen on topic Re: Why hate on the TT?
It is a lifestyle choice, sure, but I would love to but the table I made for it to good use. Unfortunately, most of my friends who wargame live over an hour away and I don't get to see that often. I love to paint, though. I'm also the only one here who actually writes up session reports about them.

I can recommend Warzone 1st ed over WH40k any day. Hell, VOID is a better choice than 40k. As for minis, I can't be arsed to have the "authentic" minis, so I make due with what I have. Pimp Guardsmen work well as Heretic Legionnaires, Punks from MC1, or gangers for Necromunda. If you look around, you can find rulesets for almost ANY type of game you want to play, most of them are free. Also, in my quest to track down similar models in the vein of Mutant Chronicles, I've found some amazing model companies that put out their own lines, and they're not attached to any license. So, they are cheaper.

Lastly, the next game I ACTUALLY want to get into is AT-43. The sculps are great, they're pre-painted, and they're relatively cheap if you're not artistically inclined.

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