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MuMu's Magic Meducation

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21 Aug 2013 20:33 #159100 by Ancient_of_MuMu
Seeing as it came up in the discussion , I do suspect my green creature deck is constructed badly at the moment, so what would one do with these cards:

Cheap creatures: Fauna Shaman (1), Kalonian Tusker (3), Garuck's Companion (3), Predator Ooze (1), Gloomwidow (3), Eternal Witness (1), Leatherback Baloth (1), Sacred Wolf (2), Master of the Wild Hunt (1), Cudgel Troll (2), Brawn (1)
Expensive creatures: Sentinel Spider (3), Rampaging Baloths (2), Primalcrux (1), Garruk's Horde (1), Protean Hulk (1), Regal Force (2), Wurmskin Forger(1), Living Hive(1)
Artifacts: Staff of the Wild Mages (3)
Buffs: Rancor (2), Elephant Guide (1), Oakenform (2), Overrun(3), Enlarge (3),
Spells: Savage Summoning (1), Prey Upon (4), Revive (1), Nature's Lore (3), Pulse of the Tangle(1), Bramblecrush (3), Hunt the Weak (2), Primeval Bounty (1), Decree of Savagery (1)

I suspect I have the mix of cards wrong. If I was to make a 60 card deck I would go with:
Land: Forest (24)
Cheap creatures: Kalonian Tusker (3), Gloomwidow (3), Leatherback Baloth (1), Master of the Wild Hunt (1), Cudgel Troll (2)
Expensive creatures: Sentinel Spider (2), Rampaging Baloths (2), Primalcrux (1), Protean Hulk (1)
Artifacts: Staff of the Wild Mages (2)
Buffs: Elephant Guide (1), Oakenform (2), Overrun(2), Enlarge (2)
Spells: Prey Upon (2), Nature's Lore (2), Pulse of the Tangle(1), Bramblecrush (2), Hunt the Weak (2), Primeval Bounty (1), Decree of Savagery (1)

The big question is whether the mix of cards is right, and if there is something good I am missing from the ones my instinct is to leave out.

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21 Aug 2013 21:08 #159101 by jeb
Replied by jeb on topic Re: MuMu's Magic Meducation
Interesting!

I would dial down the expensive stuff a little in your build, and toss the Staffs. Lifegain slows down losing, it doesn't help you win.

You want to run Rancor x2 and Overrun x3, for sure. Overrun is pretty much going to win you the game when you play it, so you'd like to have one in the top 15 cards or so every game. Enlarge? not so much. I would much rather Instants to cover any buff-this-one-creature needs. No Giant Growth, eh? That's too bad. Oakenform is a very poor man's Elephant Guide, I would try to get rid of that as well.

I would move this whole deck down a CC and become more Overrun-ready. You want a little pile of 3 or 4 2/2s, 3/3s that have gotten in for a couple of bonks. The opponent is at 13 life or so, and you hit Overrun and attack for 20+. They either die right then, or block with everything, which all dies, and you mop up.

So, play the Companions, the Eternal Witness, Predator Ooze (so awesommmmme), and the Fauna Shaman. All the little guys. Toss the Primalcrux, Regal Force and stuff--you should be winning before they are needed.

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21 Aug 2013 21:15 #159102 by Ancient_of_MuMu
The main problem I was having with this deck was that when I unlocked a card on the app, it just threw it in there, so I had 100 cards in the deck with no balance. I just trimmed it down to that 60, played a couple of games and it played so much better. The timing of your post is weird as I just ran all over my last opponent with overrun and was thinking it was a card I had undervalued. I suspect this was mainly because I was struggling to get more than 2 creatures out with the deck as it was, and so enlarge tended to be slightly better.

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21 Aug 2013 23:24 #159113 by jeb
Replied by jeb on topic Re: MuMu's Magic Meducation
I am vigorous in pruning the deck of added cards. Or at least reassessing my deck in the light of added cards and keeping only the 60 best ones.

I have 12 cards unlocked in that deck so I don't even have access to 2nd Eternal Witness, Elephant Guide, my second Rancor, &c. I am running:
1 Rancor
1 Savage Summoning
3 Prey Upon
1 Revive
2 Nature's Lore
1 Pulse of the Tangle
2 Bramblecrush
2 Hunt the Weak
3 Overrun

1 Fauna Shaman
3 Kalonian Tusker
3 Garruk's Companion
1 Predator Ooze
3 Gloomwidow
1 Eternal Witness
1 Leatherback Baloth
2 Sacred Wolf
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Cudgel Troll
2 Sentinel Spider
1 Rampaging Baloth
1 Primalcrux
1 Regal Force

22 Forests

The important thing is what I am leaving out, which is all ENORMOUS casting cost stuff, like 6cc or higher, with the exception of:
3 Staff of the Wild Mages because lifegain is not a way to win.
2 Oakenform because they are butt.
3 Enlarge, because of buttness.
...and a Cudgel Troll and Sentinel Spider, which I should probably put in over things like Regal Force, even though it would make my deck SO boring.

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22 Aug 2013 01:26 - 22 Aug 2013 01:28 #159125 by Ancient_of_MuMu
I think the big step I need to make now, is to think "How is this deck going to win this game?". I can play what I am dealt with some degree of skill (I do notice my mistakes now which is crucial to learning), but too much of my play is in the moment, making the best decision for the turn rather than the best decision for the game. I think I have now played enough to move to the next level and think about the deck as a whole rather than just looking at my hand.

Also what is the point of the Sacred Wolf? The Hexproof is moderately useful, but the 1 life means it is near useless without some sort of buff.
Last edit: 22 Aug 2013 01:28 by Ancient_of_MuMu.

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22 Aug 2013 04:56 #159136 by jeb
Replied by jeb on topic Re: MuMu's Magic Meducation

Ancient_of_MuMu wrote: I think the big step I need to make now, is to think "How is this deck going to win this game?". I can play what I am dealt with some degree of skill (I do notice my mistakes now which is crucial to learning), but too much of my play is in the moment, making the best decision for the turn rather than the best decision for the game. I think I have now played enough to move to the next level and think about the deck as a whole rather than just looking at my hand.

Also what is the point of the Sacred Wolf? The Hexproof is moderately useful, but the 1 life means it is near useless without some sort of buff.

Yep, not a huge fan of the Sacred Wolf either. But it's 3cc, so my options are to run it or replace with something even more expensive.

Nice awareness of the game, too. You definitely want to evaluate your deck on the whole from that perspective. Assuming my opponent is a lump, how will I kill them? Obviously they will do their thing and try to disrupt you, but your deck should have a concept. For this one, it's bang-for-the-buck creatures and Overrun.

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22 Aug 2013 20:30 #159206 by Ancient_of_MuMu
I hit the wall last night. I completed the entire campaign with the Hunters Strength deck and have it completely unlocked. I started the Revenge campaign and didn't stand a chance in the first battle. I am playing Hunters Strength against Avacyn's Glory and I don't see how I can win it as he just has too many ways of removing creatures.

OK just played a standard game so I will put it here:
Initial hand - 4 Land, Tusker, Predator Ooze, Rancor (not too bad for this deck, 2 cheap creatures and some land)
1st Turn:
Land for me, land for him, then he plays Champion of the Parish
2nd Turn:
Draw Land, play Land and Tusker. He plays land and Honor of the Pure
3rd Turn:
Draw Prey Upon and play Land. I cast Prey Upon rather than Ooze, as I know my Tusker will be removed soon, so may as well have it do damage. Remove his Champion and cast Rancor, attack and do 5 damage. He plays land and Fiend Hunter which takes my tusker away.
4th turn:
Draw land and get Rancor back. Play land and Ooze and Rancor on it. He plays land and Oblivion Ring (bye, bye Ooze). He attacks for 2 damage.
5th turn:
Draw Overwhelming Stampede and play Land. He plays Honor of the Pure and Gather the Townfolk, and attacks for 3 damage.
6th Turn:
Draw Prey Upon, play Land. He plays Gather the Townfolk, and attacks for 9 damage
7th Turn:
Draw Land and play Land. He plays Gather the Townfolk and attacks for 15 damage.

Basically the Oblivion Rings and Fiend Hunter get me every time (and I think there might be a 3rd card where I get a Land when he removes my creature), removing the first 2-4 creatures I put down. I can save my Prey Upons and Hunt the Weak to try to target the Fiend Hunters to get my creatures back, and if I get Bramble Crush use it to target the Oblivion Ring too, but I am lucky if I get one chance to attack or block, and he gets 3-5 creatures out and I am gone.

Is there any way that any sort of tuned Hunters Prey deck can win that match up, or is it just a case of it being a real mismatch?

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23 Aug 2013 03:38 - 23 Aug 2013 03:38 #159250 by jeb
Replied by jeb on topic Re: MuMu's Magic Meducation
Your problem in this game wasn't his removal. It was Honor of the Pure. Your creatures are going to die, that's for sure. But cost for cost, they should be trading card for card or better. YOU are guy who's supposed to be putting down 3/3's for 2. If he has Honor of the Pure online, Gather The Townsfolk drops two 2/2's for 2. He's got better creatures than you AND removal. Yes, you will lose that game, his deck is better.

What to do? Try again. If he isn't dropping Turn 2 Honor of the Pure, your dudes are a much bigger pain in the ass. He needs to kill a 3/3 guy with Gather the Townsfolk PLUS another card.
Last edit: 23 Aug 2013 03:38 by jeb.

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23 Aug 2013 04:51 #159257 by dragonstout
Okay, I'm busy with a newborn so sadly not responding to all this Magic goodness going on lately, but: in that game you just described, yes, there's nothing you could have done in that game. You drew no more than two creatures, he drew 2+ removal spells, and had stuff to kill you before you could draw anything that could save you. Didn't matter how well you played. Whether it was that his deck was better or that you just got a bad draw, I'd have to take a closer look at your decklist, which I can't right now. Thankfully, it looks like Jeb is on the job!

Also, you're saying smart things, you've got the right ideas. I'm sure there's still tons of tactical stuff to learn, but thinking about strategy instead of just tactics indicates you're on the right track. You've *gotta* think several turns ahead, at least as far as you can. First, though, make absolutely sure you've got your tactics down, how to make good attacks & blocks and so forth. It's like Chess in that way...strategy is important, but if you suck at tactics it doesn't really matter how good you are at strategy.

You're dead-on when you say "Also what is the point of the Sacred Wolf? The Hexproof is moderately useful, but the 1 life means it is near useless without some sort of buff." It's all about the buff. In general, even, Hexproof is all about the buff. Hexproof combos extremely well with equipment and auras. Invisible Stalker + Butcher's Cleaver was probably the most hated combo in Innistrad.

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23 Aug 2013 05:22 - 23 Aug 2013 05:26 #159263 by Ancient_of_MuMu
Jeb, you seem to have missed the fact that he never killed my creatures with his, so even without Honor of the Pure, I would still have 0 creatures to 4 and be down to about 10 life, and probably gone a couple of turns later. He has Oblivion Ring (cost 3), Fiend Hunter (cost 3) and Path to Exile (cost 1), all of which are low cost equal to my low cost creatures and destroy mine card for card.

I think my deck needs more low cost creatures and less buffs if it is to have a chance. The main weakness was that I didn't get a creature out for a couple of turns so he could attack without fear, and I should have saved my Prey Upon to rescue my captured card. Without any way of drawing more cards, I am always beaten because he gets more cards on the table than me, as I only need to draw a land or a buff I can't immediately use and I lose the initiative.

I really want to prove this is doable, but boy is this a hard match-up, and a shocker to face first up in that campaign. Other duels have been hard but even in the worst case I have won after 4 or 5 losses, but this one I have lost about 10 straight.
Last edit: 23 Aug 2013 05:26 by Ancient_of_MuMu.

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23 Aug 2013 05:58 #159265 by bomber
Replied by bomber on topic Re: MuMu's Magic Meducation
Good to know! I'd it realised that in the first campaign there are also planes walker duels so I'm on that now trying to run jaces blue deck but stuck on lilianas goth bitches. I have the revenge unlocked so good for the tips.

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23 Aug 2013 06:24 #159266 by Ancient_of_MuMu
A bit of a google reveals that Avacyn's Glory is the hardest deck you face in the standard campaign and Revenge and a lot of people get stuck on it. At least I am not alone, but interestingly a few people advocate Hunter's Strength to overcome it.

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23 Aug 2013 07:00 #159269 by jeb
Replied by jeb on topic Re: MuMu's Magic Meducation

Ancient_of_MuMu wrote: Jeb, you seem to have missed the fact that he never killed my creatures with his, so even without Honor of the Pure, I would still have 0 creatures to 4 and be down to about 10 life, and probably gone a couple of turns later. He has Oblivion Ring (cost 3), Fiend Hunter (cost 3) and Path to Exile (cost 1), all of which are low cost equal to my low cost creatures and destroy mine card for card.

I think my deck needs more low cost creatures and less buffs if it is to have a chance. The main weakness was that I didn't get a creature out for a couple of turns so he could attack without fear, and I should have saved my Prey Upon to rescue my captured card. Without any way of drawing more cards, I am always beaten because he gets more cards on the table than me, as I only need to draw a land or a buff I can't immediately use and I lose the initiative.

I really want to prove this is doable, but boy is this a hard match-up, and a shocker to face first up in that campaign. Other duels have been hard but even in the worst case I have won after 4 or 5 losses, but this one I have lost about 10 straight.

Look at my build, such as it is. I am trying to get down down down on the casting cost. The big critters are super fun, admittedly. But the game will be over before they could come out with this deck. Beat them with efficiency. They can cast all the cheap 1/1 flyers they want if I am dropping 3/3s and 4/4s. One Overrun and all those birds are pulped. I will go play a game against Revenge Avacyn with my current build. (It now has 1 more Eternal Witness and one less Sentinel Spider).
I play first.
My draw is 3 Forests, Garruk's Companion, Gloomwidow, Leatherback Baloth, Rancor. I keep it.
T1: Forest
T1: PLains
T2: Draw Companion, Forest, Companion.
T2: Plains, Honor of the Pure (shizz)
T3: Draw Eternal Witness, Forest, Rancor, attack for 5, Companion. 20 - 15
T3: Plains, Fiend Hunter on Rnacored Guy, Rancor returns.
T4: Draw Sacred Wolf (mana stalled on 3), Leatherback Baloth.
T4: Plains, Champion of the Parish, Oblivon Ring on the Baloth. He attacks for 2, no block, 18-15.
T5: Draw Predator ooze. Stil mana stalled. PLay ooze.
T5: he doesn't play a land. Goodnight commander, no attack.
t6: draw Hunt the Weak (uncastable). Attack with Ooze, he blocks. Sacred Wolf.
t6: he attacks with all, gang block the fiend, take 6, he Path to Exiles, and keeps his fiend. 12 - 15.
t7: Draw Nature's Lore. Would LOVE to Hunt thr Weak on the Fiend with Ooze, for a 4/4 Ooze and returned Companion, but the timing doesn't work like that. I attack with Ooze, hoping he blocks with Fiend. He Path to Exiles. Dang. Eternal Witness, returning Wolf, Rancor on Witness.
T7: He attacks with all, Witness blocks Fiend, take 6, Rancor returns, Companion returns. 6- 15.
t8: Draw Regal Force. BLEARG. Anyway. 5 mana. Can Nature's Lore, and Hunt the Weak his Champion, whom can get big in a hurry. Can Lore and drop a another blocker. Decide to do the former. I can go to 3 or 2, not much choice really. But I will be troubled if that Champion has 4+ toughness. (Should I have attacked first? Mebbe.)
T8: Plains, He casts Increasing Devotion--that's game. Goodnight swings for 8.

Again, he had a KILLER opening, but I was hanging in on a three land draw. Totally doable.

===

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23 Aug 2013 16:06 #159322 by Black Barney
Hey mumu,

great question. The Hunter's Strength deck is probably the 2nd worst deck in the game, so don't ever have great expectations with it. That being said, I have a build or two that I think has the highest win ratio of my friends' Hunter's Strength decks so I think my build is good, not great tho. Here is what I am running at the moment:

Let's sort this by casting cost, it's easier to talk about that way.

60 cards, 18 creatures, 17 spells, 25 lands

1-cost
4x Prey Upon (removal is really important in this meta)
3x Rancor (this card is amazing, put one on a Predator Ooze and your opponent often scoops)

2-cost
1x Fauna Shaman (great card)
1x Garruk's Companion (the tusker is much better)
3x Kalonian Tusker
4x Nature's Lore (this ramp card is fantastic)

3-cost
2x Eternal Witness (great card)
1x Leatherback Baloth
1x Predator Ooze
1x Pulse of the Tangle

4-cost
2x Cudgel Troll
1x Master of the Wild Hunt

5-cost
1x Bellowing Tangleworm
1x Sentinel Spider
1x Overrun
1x Enlarge
1x Overhwelming Stampede

6-cost
1x Primalcrux
1x Rampaging Baloths
1x Vigor
1x Primeval Bounty (really underappreciated card, it turns each top deck into something)

7-cost
1x Regal Force

x-cost
1x Green Sun's Zenith (SOOOO amazing)


one of the big misconceptions about this deck is how many people are playing too much Overrun. In PREVIOUS Duels of the Planeswalkers, all the green decks were designed as Overrun decks. Tons of cheap green creatures, lots of tokens, etc. This version of Garruk does not have enough of that. It is an Enlarge deck. Enlarge is MUCH better than Overrun for this variant.

Good luck!

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23 Aug 2013 20:13 - 23 Aug 2013 21:21 #159349 by Ancient_of_MuMu
I finally beat it last night before waking up to find this helpful information. However I think it was more because with my deck and skill level I only had a 10% chance of winning and by playing enough I finally hit that 10%. I will have to try these builds.

Also I am now feeling a bit done with the deck, so which one would people recommend I try next (given I have only played with Hunter's Strength).

EDIT: Just tried Barney's build and won 2/3 with it, so clearly a lot of my problems were in the build, rather than the play.
Last edit: 23 Aug 2013 21:21 by Ancient_of_MuMu.
The following user(s) said Thank You: jeb, Black Barney

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