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Bugs: Recent Topics Paging, Uploading Images & Preview (11 Dec 2020)

Recent Topics paging, uploading images and preview bugs require a patch which has not yet been released.

× Talk about collectible card here.

Fantasy Flight Announces Some Big Changes for LCGs

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06 Nov 2014 11:10 #190107 by Erik Twice

stoic wrote: I hate games with a built-in expiration date.

The thing is, all these games will eventually die without set rotation because you need an influx of newer players to compensate for the older ones that inevitable stop playing. Because unlike other games, once you cannot go every week to play the game, most of the fun is gone. You can't recreate a metagame, the deckbuilding and experimentation without a community.


All I hope is that they keep a banlist for an Eternal format. They don't need to support it with prizes or anything, but a banlist would be incredibly helpful.
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18 Oct 2017 04:15 - 18 Oct 2017 04:17 #255886 by __
One thing I've never understood, and this is only tangential to the OP here is, what is the problem with card games and stock. I personally can order a deck of cards from artscow or printer studio and it get to my door in a week or so from China.

How is it that gaming companies who have "the cards" on a hard drive somewhere, do not have the capacity to effectively "print on demand" small or large print runs of any of their cards, whenever they want. How do card games ever go out of print?

I remember thinking how the heck did that company mess up Glory to Rome reprint such that it never got fixed, when the actual art and content exists. Why cant it just be sent to a printer? I guess its more complicated than that :)

But I dont get why having old cards " in stock" would be a problem for FFG, surely they dont need to hold physical cards in stock, and surely they have the clout to allow any person at any time to "buy" any deck they ever had, via a contract with a print service, if it costs just a few dollars to get my own from Artscow, how much can it cost to provide that service for pretty much any card game or card content? Obviously theres licensing and rights but I still find it surprising you cant just click on a link and pay X dollars for any card deck or resource ever via an external print service, and the money X you pay is divvied up by FFG or whoever in the same ratio as when the game was in print, ie to artist, designer, publisher, whatever
Last edit: 18 Oct 2017 04:17 by __.

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18 Oct 2017 04:56 #255891 by Erik Twice

Tron wrote: How is it that gaming companies who have "the cards" on a hard drive somewhere, do not have the capacity to effectively "print on demand" small or large print runs of any of their cards, whenever they want. How do card games ever go out of print?

Print on demand is extremely expensive and inefficient, hence game companies wait until they can place a large order at a normal printer.

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18 Oct 2017 05:13 #255892 by __
I guess I do not understand why PoD is expensive and inefficient. The company has the digital files required. If I can buy a deck of cards from Artscow for a few dollars, why can't FFG have a deal with a similar service/company where I pay them some dollars, the digital file is sent to that company and they print it. As a consumer I would pay all the costs, all FFG is doing is sending a digital file they already have to a company who presses a "print" button (however it works at artscow). I get that this might cost me, the end user a few more dollars than I might typically pay for a deck of cards, I just do not understand why companies cannot send their digital files to a trusted service on demand, this costs them nothing whatsoever, and the consumer pays to have it printed and shipped.

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18 Oct 2017 05:23 #255894 by Sevej
Well, two entities working together is a bit more complicated than that, even more so with licensed products. Probably won't even get past the due diligence on the grounds on how easy people print copyrighted stuff in Artscow.

Then there's quality thing when FFG wants everything to feel the same, especially for competitive card games. To do so they print in China. In that case, it's cheaper to get a container of the same thing instead 1 or 2 off shoots.

In the end, people just doesn't care enough for FFG to warrant the effort.

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18 Oct 2017 06:36 #255895 by Erik Twice

Tron wrote: I guess I do not understand why PoD is expensive and inefficient.

Economies of scale. It's cheaper to print 100 000 copies of something than 500. It's also easier to distribute and does not harm retailers, like PoD does.

There are additional issues, like quality control (Netrunner promos are PoD and have a noticiable different back than normal cards).

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18 Oct 2017 06:53 #255896 by __
but thats not what I am asking. i mean why cant FFG send the digital file to an external printer based on me sending them some money. It makes zero difference to them whether they themselves can print 1000 decks cheaper than 5. It makes no difference if FFG could theoretically print 1000 decks at 5 bucks each but I as an individual must pay 20 bucks for 1 deck. Its me the customer who is paying for content which already exists on a hard drive, exactly as was sent to the printer when the game was published. And FFG and all involved parties would get a cut of that, every single cent of which is extra to what they get (zero) for having the digital file sat on a hard disk.

But I get that the reasons are no doubt largely what seve said, licensing, quality control issues, general lack of motivation for FFG for what would not be a big gain for them. Would be cool to have some kind of deal for OOP games that they released the digital files for purchase, with those funds going to the creator/artist but I know thats not a realistic option.

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18 Oct 2017 07:39 #255898 by Erik Twice

Tron wrote: i mean why cant FFG send the digital file to an external printer based on me sending them some money.

Because they make more money if you spend that money buying the actual product instead of a weird externally printed knock-off that eats into their distribution channels.

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18 Oct 2017 07:49 #255899 by __
I feel like we're talking at cross purposes here.
This is about a product which doesnt exist. Theres no actual product. Its product which is OOP and which they cant afford to hold in stock any more. They are making zero money from this as they have nothing to sell. If they let someone buy access to the digital file sat on a hard disk earning zero money, they earn some money. Admittedly not much but that wasnt the point I was interested in specifically. This is not some alternative to getting stuff they are distributing, this is specifically getting hold of stuff they have discontinued and no longer exists to buy by traditional channels.

(for that matter, if holding onto stock is a problem why dont more companies go for a kickstarter style buy in scheme where you register a purchase, and they only knock it out to the printers once they get so many orders a bit like the GMT P500 system, again, that wasnt specifically my point).

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18 Oct 2017 07:58 #255901 by Erik Twice

Tron wrote: They are making zero money from this as they have nothing to sell. If they let someone buy access to the digital file sat on a hard disk earning zero money, they earn some money.

The risk and cost of doing this isn't worth the ten bucks they would make.

There's no need for FFG or anyone to print cycled-out Netrunner packs or the like, given they are extremely common and can be bought for next-to-nothing in the second hand market. And, if there's more demand than expected for expansions still in use, they'll simply reprint them like they have done in the past.
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18 Oct 2017 09:16 #255909 by Shellhead

Tron wrote: I feel like we're talking at cross purposes here.
This is about a product which doesnt exist. Theres no actual product. Its product which is OOP and which they cant afford to hold in stock any more. They are making zero money from this as they have nothing to sell. If they let someone buy access to the digital file sat on a hard disk earning zero money, they earn some money. Admittedly not much but that wasnt the point I was interested in specifically. This is not some alternative to getting stuff they are distributing, this is specifically getting hold of stuff they have discontinued and no longer exists to buy by traditional channels.

(for that matter, if holding onto stock is a problem why dont more companies go for a kickstarter style buy in scheme where you register a purchase, and they only knock it out to the printers once they get so many orders a bit like the GMT P500 system, again, that wasnt specifically my point).


Money is money. If people spend more on your proposed POD print runs, they are spending less at retail stores in the normal distribution channels. Those distribution channels will naturally perceive that as a threat to their business model. FFG needs to preserve a working relationship with their distributors, because stores can host tournaments and events which will drive up card sales, while POD offers nothing of the sort to FFG.

Also, new cards are the lifeblood of a CCG/LCG. With one exception (Jyhad), I have never seen players keep playing a CCG for more than a year after the last card set was released. By cycling old card sets out of tournament play and cycling in new card sets, FFG will keep players more interested in an ever-changing game, and make it easier for a new player to jump in and become competitive. Magic has been successfully doing that for many years now, and aside from Pokemon, FFG has the only other CCGs that are still viable.

FFG does do operate somewhat like the kickstarter mode that you are proposing, at least when it comes to their older games. They will let games go out of print for a while, but if enough demand is out there, they will eventually greenlight another production run.
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18 Oct 2017 10:45 #255916 by __
I can understand that, probaby FFG/LCG was not a great example, I really meant more generally a lament about all the great content sat on hard drives in dusty corporate offices never seeing the light of day again, to exactly no ones benefit #entitlement :)

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19 Oct 2017 10:10 #255980 by Msample

Tron wrote: One thing I've never understood, and this is only tangential to the OP here is, what is the problem with card games and stock. I personally can order a deck of cards from artscow or printer studio and it get to my door in a week or so from China.

How is it that gaming companies who have "the cards" on a hard drive somewhere, do not have the capacity to effectively "print on demand" small or large print runs of any of their cards, whenever they want. How do card games ever go out of print?

I remember thinking how the heck did that company mess up Glory to Rome reprint such that it never got fixed, when the actual art and content exists. Why cant it just be sent to a printer? I guess its more complicated than that :)

But I dont get why having old cards " in stock" would be a problem for FFG, surely they dont need to hold physical cards in stock, and surely they have the clout to allow any person at any time to "buy" any deck they ever had, via a contract with a print service, if it costs just a few dollars to get my own from Artscow, how much can it cost to provide that service for pretty much any card game or card content? Obviously theres licensing and rights but I still find it surprising you cant just click on a link and pay X dollars for any card deck or resource ever via an external print service, and the money X you pay is divvied up by FFG or whoever in the same ratio as when the game was in print, ie to artist, designer, publisher, whatever




FFG actually does have print on demand product - the Warhammer Quest Card game expansions were POD, and they do GenCon event packs for the LotR LCG that are later sold in stores. The card quality is acceptable but still noticeably different than inline product.

LCGs have pretty much zero secondary market value and thus I don't see the need for POD product for their regular stuff.

As for the Glory to Rome reprint, short story is that the card art isn't the issue, securing the rights is. All signs point to the rights holder being so butthurt over the thrashing he got on BGG over the clusterfuck of a KS campaign, that he packed up his toys and went home. I am sure he's been approached numerous times by companies looking to secure the rights and so far , nothing has happened. Even the clamshell box, cartoon artwork first edition is fetching decent money . There are users on BGG that have made up their own card art and printed it off from ArtScow , but they do not post the actual art files due to copyright issues.

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19 Oct 2017 12:54 #256001 by __
Yeah I remember the KS campaign, its hard to believe how you can make a mess of basically 2 packs of cards in a box once you've sorted out the art and stuff I mean, but somehow they managed despite getting the money up front (haha, and thats another infamous KS). I heard that the guy in charge ended up losing his house by the end of it, just beggars belief really.

Id forgotten the PoD stuff, I think they did some Gears of War expansion PoD and arent a couple of the Arkham LCG packs kind of PoD as well.

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