Here I Stand vs Struggle of Empires vs Friedrich

This week Trashdome - unplayed games comes from BFkiller.

Feature Match - Big mult-player games:
Here I Stand
Struggle of Empires
Friedrich

Undercard #1 - Adventure Games:
World of Warcraft the Adventure Game:
Talisman 4th edition:

Undercard #2 - Card driven - "war like" games.
Twilight Struggle:
Labyrinth - The War on Terror:

This week and in future weeks we're going to use Trashdome as a way to learn a little bit more about some of the regulars on F:AT. I've asked BFkiller a few questions to learn a little more about who he games with and the types of games he likes. I encourage everyone else ask him a few questions.

Do you have a regular game group? Yes, but I don't game with that regular game group regularly. I live about 2 1/2 hours drive away. I still play games with them every three months or so. Last year was also the first of an intended annual tradition of having my game group come to me for a weekend of non-stop gaming. The next one will be in May or June of this year. (Probably my best opportunity to get some of my unplayed games to the table.)

Describe who you game with most often? What they play, how often they meet etc.?
The guys I game with are all in their mid-to-late thirties, most have a family with young children, and, when I'm at one of their game days, it'll be a Saturday or Sunday and last for about 8-10 hours. Some of them are big fans of Euro games, so stuff like 7 Wonders, Agricola, Stone Age hits the table. Usually if I'm there they'll play something more trashy. Wargames aren't on their radar at all but it's something I'm going to try and indtroduce if they're up for it, probably through wargame/Euro hybrids.

What's your favorite games?
My 10s on BGG are:
Fury of Dracula
Battlestar Galactica
Twilight Imperium 3
War of the Ring
Hornet Leader: Carrier Air Operations
Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization
Tales of the Arabian Nights
El Grande

What game, or style of game or aspects of gaming do you dislike? I don't enjoy games that are highly procedural with a set strategy to discover, with each turn pretty much indestinguishable from another. St. Petersburg and The Princes of Florence come to mind.

bfkiller. I've got a pretty good pile of unplayed games. I moved to a new city a few years ago and my game playing dropped quite a bit since I only ever play with the same group of friends. But I haven't lost my enthusiasm for board games, so I still get new ones every once in a while. So my unplayed games are:

RuneWars: purchased near the end of last year
Here I Stand: purchased near the end of last year
Mansions of Madness: recently received in a math trade for Hannibal: Rome vs Carthage, which was a game I owned for about four years but had never played
Wrasslin': recently received in a math trade for Pandemic, which was a game I owned for two years but had never played
Labyrinth - The War on Terror: recently received in a trade
Under the Lily Banners: recently received in a trade
Twilight Struggle: recently received in a trade (this is the second time I've owned it but I never played my previously copy either)
Struggle of Empires: purchased at a sale about two years ago
Friedrich: received in a trade about two years ago (it will get played Doc Mabs... someday)
World of Warcraft the Adventure Game: purchased at a sale over a year ago
Talisman 4th edition: received in a trade over a year ago
Scotland Yard: bought at a thrift store years ago

Struggle of Empires is a lock.

World of Warcraft The Adventure Game with room to spare.

Twilight Struggle by a nose.

S.

Go with the undisputed classics:
Here I stand
Talisman
Twilight Struggle.

Here I Stand. No competition.

- - -

For the second one all I can say is, Talisman sucks.

Twilight Struggle I used to like a lot, but I don't think I'll play it again. Labyrinth I found enjoyable.

Here I Stand, absolutely. The historical detail is what wins it for me.

Never played WoW: TAG, so I'll have to stick with Talisman, especially since 4th Ed. is basically a reprint of one of my all-time faves (2nd Ed.)

Twilight Struggle on the other undercard, again because of the historical detail.

Main Event: Here I Stand. Nothing compares.

Undercard #1: Talisman I guess.... Don't know anything about WoW: TAG

Undercard #2: Labyrinth. I'm simply not smart enough to regularly survive the first couple of turns playing the US in Twilight Struggle. I find Labyrinth equally as entertaining and more survivable...

Here I Stand, but good luck getting it on the table, especially without a dedicated crew. I think I'd have to fly to the East Coast to get in a proper tabletop game.

There is constantly at least one F:AT PBEM game of this running. I may be reaching some sort of saturation after playing it for around three straight years.

I almost changed my avatar to Charles V because of that game. I still might.

Undercard #1. Talisman. Bring drinks, though. If you're not bothered by playing ToTAN, you should have fun with Talisman.

Undercard #2. Twilight Struggle. (sadly, my copy of Labyrinth is still unplayed as well, so this is a default.)

If you never played it, PBEM is a great way to get into Here I Stand. FTF is of course better if you can find a game.

Undercard #1 Talisman
Undercard #2 Twilight Struggle

Feature Match - Big mult-player games:

This is a difficult match - all are very good. But I think I'm going to go with Friedrich for the simple reason that the other two are more complex and more involved and you'll probably thrash around with the rules the first session or two, so you're looking at finding multiple sessions of very long games to get full enjoyment out of them. Friedrich you can make a judgement on after one game, and I'm sure it'll be a positive one.

Undercard #1 - Adventure Games:

Probably Talisman. Neither game are favourites of mine - there are many better games around in this category - but Talisman is the better game of these two and it's a classic. However it's also the longer game so you might have trouble finding the time I guess. There is a vassal module around somewhere if you want to do it via email.

Undercard #2 - Card driven - "war like" games.

Twilight Struggle, no contest. Not only is it better than Labyrinth, but the latter is a rather fiddly game to learn and playing TS first will put you in good stead to get the rules down. I'm always ready to play a game via email - it works extremely well - if you want to break this duck.

Not Sure wrote: Here I Stand [...] There is constantly at least one F:AT PBEM game of this running.

Let me know when you guys start on Virgin Queen.

Feature Match - Big multi-player games:

I don't think Friedrich is really "big" by any measure, so my vote goes to Here I Stand. But Friedrich is a wonderful game, and getting a group of 3-4 to play a 3-ish hour game is an easier proposition than a full game of HIS.

Undercard #1 - Adventure Games:

No opinion here--I've only played Talisman once and was pretty "meh" about it. Never played it as a kid, that could be why.

Undercard #2 - Card driven - "war like" games.

Twilight Struggle by default. I don't expect I'll ever play Labyrinth--I haven't really read much about it, but it looks like it could be a hawkish neocon's wet dream of a game.

I would agree with Joel that Friederich isn't a big game.

Choosing between the other two is tough. HERE I STAND is in many ways a brilliant game. Each country has a very different feel to it, and the design cleverly gives each player a unique way to earn VP that is usually safe from interference from other players. However, it does have a few downsides. One is game length. You gotta budget a day long session - 8 hours I'd say. This is based on average games going about 6-7 turns. Most groups take an hour per turn minimum. God help you if you have some fun murdering AP type person.

It also has a pretty steep learning curve. To Ed's credit, the game has wide crossover appeal - many are attracted to it who are not normal CDG players. But the mechanics are tricky, and the same unique feel to each power mean a pretty long set of rules. Granted, they are VERY well written and the game has seen no errata that I am aware. This is NOT a game to teach people who are too fucking lazy to read the rules and rely on "drafting" behind those who have. Players need to invest time in learning the game.

STRUGGLE OF EMPIRES is a clean, elegant design. I have taught it dozens of times to newbs and although it has a crappy rulebook ( typical for Wallace ) once you get the hang of things, it moves along assuming early game actions aren't dragged down by AP dorks mulling tile selection.

VOTE: STRUGGLE OF EMPIRES by a hair.

I have not played either game in the first undercard.

TWILIGHT STRUGGLE has become the best selling CDG of all time by a wide margin and not without reason. It is a fast playing, clean game with some straightforward mechanics. It also is very frustrating for new players, esp the US. God forbid you get two scoring cards in an early hand, because you are screwed. Proponents will say you can plan ahead knowing you have them, but they ignore the fact that the scoring cards are essentially passes, since you get NO OPS from them. As the US especially, this can be fatal in an early hand. The Defcon track is also frustrating. The USSR player , once in the lead , wants to get it down to 2 as fast as possible, making it hard to gain back the key Battleground countries.

The first edition had balance issues later recfified with new cards. Interestingly, the tournament sharks refuse to play with them. The dividing of the deck into 3 parts, while chronologically making sense, make the game play a little more chess like than I would prefer.

LABYRINTH is more free form. The sides each play very differently from one another. If you can put aside any differences you have with subject matter or design viewpoint, it’s the game I vastly prefer.

VOTE: LABYRINTH

Vote:Struggle of Empires (long live wallace)

Vote:Talisman 4th edition

I dislike all the current 2player CDG's, so neither.

Some good ones!!!

Feature Match - Big mult-player games:
Here I Stand for sure. It's an all day game, and England isn't my favorite position to play. But if people know what they're doing, a bit of self balancing, everyone has a good chance to win. It's epic and fantastic, probably my favorite game. Can't wait for Virgin Queen.

I'm skipping Undercard one because I have no idea about either game.

Undercard #2 - Card driven - "war like" games.
Twilight Struggle:
Labyrinth - The War on Terror:

This is another really tough one. I think if you asked me right now, I'd probably say Labyrinth though I love both games. Twilight Struggle is more tense, but I really do like the extra asymmetry between sides in Labyrinth and the two card combo mechanics.