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This is part of a series of bloody matches to the death. Show support for your favorite game so it will do better in the fight. You can support it by writing why you think its the better game and more importantly by betting (i.e. voting for) it. Please make it clear for when I check the bets later. You have until Friday when I tally the bets and declare the winner. I will reserve my bet for any tie-breakers.

Although you should be familiar with both games, there is no rule that says you have to have played both of them. The only rule in Trashdome is this;

Two games enter! One game leaves!

X-wing vs. Heroscape (vs. MtG)

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11 Jul 2013 21:36 #156376 by Space Ghost
Ok - in recent threads, I have heard from Pete that Heroscape is better than X-wing, while Michael has claimed that X-wing beats Heroscape.

I have X-wing, but have never played Heroscape. I have been thinking of tracking down some Heroscape and giving it a shot -- and at the same time, thinking of selling some MtG to fund the exploration.

So, which is better?

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11 Jul 2013 22:23 #156377 by dragonstout
Heroscape is *easily* better than X-Wing. Much faster-moving, far greater variety of figures and powers, awesome-looking terrain, no measuring.

But I thought X-Wing was incredibly tedious.

MtG is obviously in an entirely different league. Entirely different. But you can probably sell off four Magic cards to buy everything released for X-Wing, so you don't exactly need to "sell out of Magic" to get into one of the others.
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11 Jul 2013 22:35 #156378 by Michael Barnes
Yeah, I would not sell out of Magic to buy X-Wing, that would be a little on the foolish side even though it's one of my favorite games of recent years.

Heroscape is really fun, the terrain system is fantastic, and of course the toy factor is off the scale. But for as much as I like it, I have never once been inclined to own it beyond the master set. Yep, that's all I ever bought. Every game I've ever played has been with other people's massive collections.

It's VERY simple, and you might be disappointed at how basic it is. There is depth in squad building, but to get to that you really need a lot of stuff and some of it from what I understand is getting expensive and hard to find.

Neither game is as good- or as perennial- as Magic. But that said, if you've got cards gathering dust and not being played with, I guess that makes a better argument for trading out.

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12 Jul 2013 01:38 #156384 by Sagrilarus
Comparing Heroscape and X-Wing isn't fair by any means, because Heroscape was in production for years and has a level of support and expansions that is second to none.

I call Heroscape the perfect board game for a number of reasons and one of them is for the publisher more than the buyer -- the nature of its theme literally allows for expansions in any direction that can be imagined (and "literally" in this case literally means "literally"). So a metric butt-ton of content was available for sale. X-Wing like every other game besides Heroscape is bound by its theme, and will never have the opportunity for the kind of expansion and broad appeal that Heroscape did. You're never going to see Gorillinators flying space ships.

X-Wing appears to be getting tournament following, but I'll tell you what, I've never met nicer people, better gamers, better sports, or had more raucous, fun play than at the Heroscape tournaments I've attended. They are the gold standard of gaming events, lifting the game way higher that it is when you're playing in the kitchen with your buddies. It is truly a high bar to clear.

S.
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12 Jul 2013 03:45 #156387 by Space Ghost
I have a bunch of X-wing stuff now; the question was more about whether the Heroscape experience would add much.

I don't have much of an attention of getting completely out of MtG. I am thinking of just narrowing down my collection to: (a) cards that are viable in vintage and legacy, or (b) to cards for a just a few favorite decks in vintage and legacy.

There is a lot of Heroscape that seems appealing, but I am sure that what I am looking for is going to be be in squad building. As such, I know that it will be more of an investment.

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12 Jul 2013 04:00 #156388 by Stormcow
Heroscape is way overrated. Squad-building aside, it's just another run-to-the-middle-and-shoot kind of game. There is *some* level of tactical decision making during play, but it is very basic, entry level stuff. You know, as if it were designed to be a child's first tactical game.

Now the squad building is a lot more interesting, but you really end up spending $500 or more to get the most out of it. You often want three copies of a common squad, and of course you want a lot of different kinds of squads for build option variety. You can see that it can get out of hand fast.

And this is more of a pet peeve, but for the life of me I could never figure out how to split my collection fairly so two players could army build without both trying to grab the same piece. You can't do it by faction, since the factions aren't balanced, and in any case you are gimping your experience if you don't allow crossover groups. You could just deal them randomly I suppose, except good luck shuffling those hex cards. At least with X-Wing, you have Rebels vs Imperials, clear as night and day.

So yeah, X-Wing for me. Army building is as good or better, and the actual gameplay is much, much more engaging. After playing a bit of X-Wing and Monsterpocalypse, I relaized I would never enjoy Heroscape again. Sold off my collection with great relief.


I don't really know how you want me to compare either of them with MtG. Myself, I prefer kitchen table cube sealed. Tournament level Legacy? If you don't intend to use your MtG cards, you might as well sell them - there's a good chance they won't be relevant in a few years, and if they are you can buy them again if you like. Some of those prices will rise, but hey now we are talking about investing in collectibles, not about playing games.

All of these are lifestyle games you know? Or at least they can be, if you want. If you like they lifestyle, maybe it doesn't matter so much which is objectively the best game.
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12 Jul 2013 04:17 #156391 by Space Ghost
I guess I see the similarity in them as the "deck building" aspect. Right now, as Sag mentions, X-wing is the most limited as it has the shortest history; however, I imagine that it will continue to be supported.

I usually just play in Vintage tournaments -- but I have the occasional Legacy game/deck thrown in as well. My experience is that some Legacy decks can remain perpetually relevant and only require some minor tweaking (Fish/Goblins, for example) and many of the cards cross-over between Vintage and Legacy.

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12 Jul 2013 05:23 - 12 Jul 2013 05:25 #156394 by Stormcow
Hey, I am no expert, I haven't played Legacy in years, and Vintage only in proxy. If you think you will play them, or if you think it makes financial sense to hold them, by all means keep your cards.

EDIT: And if you're asking which is the best game from a construction perspective... yeah it's still MtG, hands down.
Last edit: 12 Jul 2013 05:25 by Stormcow.

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12 Jul 2013 05:41 #156396 by jeb
Replied by jeb on topic X-wing vs. Heroscape (vs. MtG)

Space Ghost wrote: I guess I see the similarity in them as the "deck building" aspect. Right now, as Sag mentions, X-wing is the most limited as it has the shortest history; however, I imagine that it will continue to be supported.

I usually just play in Vintage tournaments -- but I have the occasional Legacy game/deck thrown in as well. My experience is that some Legacy decks can remain perpetually relevant and only require some minor tweaking (Fish/Goblins, for example) and many of the cards cross-over between Vintage and Legacy.

Yep, this is model I went for, and have since gone even further and retired from MtG. Just pick your favorite decks and keep those tuned and current. I had my Mid-range Green 250 deck and the skeleton of Stax I never got around the finishing out before bailing for an iPad. In some ways its nice to have the monkey off my back.

But anyway, there are decks you like (Fish, by the sounds), but you doubtless have shit that would _never_ go in that kind of deck. Dump those for $$$ and get something fresh that you'll play.

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12 Jul 2013 07:25 - 12 Jul 2013 07:27 #156400 by dragonstout

Stormcow wrote: If you don't intend to use your MtG cards, you might as well sell them - there's a good chance they won't be relevant in a few years, and if they are you can buy them again if you like. Some of those prices will rise, but hey now we are talking about investing in collectibles, not about playing games.

I gotta add my opinion that this is *terrible* advice. If you look at the past 10 years or so since Legacy's inception, cards that were relevant 10 years ago are still relevant, and WAY more expensive. Certainly since I started playing Legacy around 5 years ago, extremely few cards have gone down, and most cards have gone way up. The decks that were around 5 years ago are still alive and kickin', outside of a very few that were banned.

That said: I nonetheless sold my Legacy collection, except for my dual lands. I do still expect them to grow in price; but slowly, and I'd rather invest in quicker-growing assets. My main concern is with the possibility of Wizards deliberately killing Legacy; Aaron Forsythe has come out in favor of StarCityGames switching from Legacy to Modern, for example (SCG's response is that their Legacy tournaments are WAY more popular than their Modern tournaments).
Last edit: 12 Jul 2013 07:27 by dragonstout.

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12 Jul 2013 09:35 #156402 by Stormcow
Well, let me put it to you this way: assuming I don't already own cards, and I have no intention of playing, are you really recommending that I BUY into MtG cards as a form of financial investment?

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12 Jul 2013 13:23 #156410 by quozl
I haven't played X-Wing and I've only dabbled in Magic but I can try to tell you why I like Heroscape.

It's a kids game. It's all of the complexity and nuance of wargaming distilled into its essence and made simple enough for a kid to understand and enjoy. And it's centered around pure crazy fun, not historical accuracy or whatever. Are there strategies? Sure, pretty much the same strategies as any hex and counter wargame still apply. Is there armybuilding? A bit but it's pretty obvious what the best builds are in a blind build format. Where Heroscape really comes into its own is drafting your army and creating scenarios. And you can have an extremely satisfying 2-player game done in an hour.

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12 Jul 2013 14:55 - 12 Jul 2013 15:00 #156430 by Deleted

Michael Barnes wrote: Yeah, I would not sell out of Magic to buy X-Wing, that would be a little on the foolish side even though it's one of my favorite games of recent years.

If you had some ace cards that people would buy for insane dollar figures, then fuck yes. It's not like a couple good cards sold would deny you your ability to play Magic forever. If you were choosing "ending my love affair with Magic to rape Heroscape's face", then that's a personal decision. I like Heroscape better.

Heroscape is really fun, the terrain system is fantastic, and of course the toy factor is off the scale. But for as much as I like it, I have never once been inclined to own it beyond the master set. Yep, that's all I ever bought. Every game I've ever played has been with other people's massive collections.

Yeah, but you're not inclined to own much. Additionally, if you have friends with huge collections, fuck buying your own. Playing with their shit > Paying for your shit.

It's VERY simple, and you might be disappointed at how basic it is. There is depth in squad building, but to get to that you really need a lot of stuff and some of it from what I understand is getting expensive and hard to find.

It's not hard to find, it's harder to find CHEAP. I get shit off of Craigslist all the time; I find a set, keep what I want, scalp the balance and it generally comes out that I made money on the deal or got my shit free. There's a reason my eBay id is Horsetrader.

Calling Heroscape "basic" is kind of bullshit, though. There's SO MANY factors to consider, especially when you play armies with synergies. It's not overly complex, but it's most assuredly not simple.

Neither game is as good- or as perennial- as Magic. But that said, if you've got cards gathering dust and not being played with, I guess that makes a better argument for trading out.

Depends on if you like card games. I think Magic is utterly droll.

EDIT:
Heroscape has a RABID, loyal following. 3 years after its demise, it still has worldwide tournaments, still has people extending the game with customs (high quality designs, I might add), and still has world championships at GenCon with 200+ in attendance.

If you go to GenCon, check out the Heroscape tables. It's 10 50-60 foot tables with 64 maps on them and every one of them bitches is being used from the start to the end of GenCon. For a dead game, it's got legs. Hell, it's probably the most influential "light wargame" in the last decade of the 2000's.
Last edit: 12 Jul 2013 15:00 by Deleted.
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12 Jul 2013 15:27 - 12 Jul 2013 15:30 #156435 by Josh Look
Heroscape is probably better than X-Wing...probably. It comes down to whether or not you want an extra level of spacial detail, which includes height and line of sight. It isn't much of one, mind you, but it's there. The set up and tear down for Heroscape is a bitch, but it is less fiddly and less prone to the issues any minis game suffers from once it is set up. X-Wing has replaced Heroscape for me for set up alone. It's also still in production, which helps.

Fuck MtG. Remember that "Ruined by fans" chart? Put Magic on that bitch, can't think of anything more deserving of being on it in all of gaming.
Last edit: 12 Jul 2013 15:30 by Josh Look.
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12 Jul 2013 15:41 #156441 by Sagrilarus
Magic: The Gathering attracts the kinds of players I actively try to avoid. There's some great folks playing, but there are some incredible tools that show up at events.

Heroscape pulls the best people you'll meet to events, including several members here on F:At that bring their kids. They bring their kids because they can.

S.
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