Trashdome - Twilight Imperium 3 vs Nexus Ops

metalface13 wrote:

I'll give my vote to Nexus Ops because I've never played TI3. But for as short as the playtime is for Nexus Ops, I've never played a complete game.

I am genuinely surprised though at how many people have commented in these Trashdome threads supporting games with shorter play times, smaller overhead and less set up time. You guys are starting to sound like a bunch of Eurogamers (no suprise in Michael "I got Reef Encounter in a math trade" Barnes' case).

I have mixed feelings about it. I was surprised to see Barnes support Nexus Ops in this one, and yet I'm embarrassed that I used the same reasoning to pick Cosmic Encounter in the last one. In a perfect world, I would always choose the long, complex, epic-scale AT games like Dune and TI3 over shorter, lighter fillers like Cosmic Encounter or Nexus Ops. But in reality, those shorter and lighter games will hit the table a lot more often... and after a while, that starts to become its own compelling argument for the superiority of those shorter games.

The problem is that the Eurogamers' idea of what "short game" means kind of ruined the idea for a lot of folks. "Fillers" and bitching about a 4 hour game while playing 4 hours worth of other games have poisoned the well, so to speak. "Short" doesn't have to mean "shit". Most of the best games I've played over the last year are less than 90-120 minutes.

I think it's really unreasonable for most adults to regularly play a 5-6 hour long game. If my groups do, we have to set aside one of our game nights and make sure everybody is on board for it and is prepared to play only that one thing all night. But like I said, that's hard to do sometimes and if someone just kind of likes a game like TI3, they may wind up doing something else rather than spending all night playing something they're not crazy about.

But yeah, when you pull it off and everybody gets into it, it's glorious. But you know, some nights I _do not_ feel like dragging out all 5,000 components in DESCENT. I don't want to plow through a six hour game of TI3 all the time. There are times when that is the furthest thing from fun that I could possibly imagine, next to playing TRANSAMERICA.

But there's always time for NEXUS OPS, and if somebody doesn't know how to play it's easy to get them up and running in five minutes. The tradeoff is that the game is much smaller and there's not that epic scale, but all of that carries a pretty high price that I'm not always willing to pay.

Michael Barnes wrote:

Most of the best games I've played over the last year are less than 90-120 minutes.

This is like finding out that most of the best miracles Jesus performed in the bible we just photoshopped.

I feel dead inside.

Nexus Ops is a test. an elimination process to find those players worthy of playing ti3 with you.

This is like finding out that most of the best miracles Jesus performed in the bible we just photoshopped.

If it's any consolation to you, MAGICAL ATHELETE is better than all of the miracles of Jesus put together. And it's about 30 minutes long.

There's nothing wrong with liking -- or even preferring -- short games.

The crime is denying yourself the pleasure of an excellent game just because of some abstract and baseless doctrine about the need for "mathematical elegance," or "perfect information," or any of that other crap.

Likewise, if you prefer short games to long games, it would be a crime to force yourself to only play long games just because someone on the internet told you to.

The last thing we need is a Sacred Law that says a game must be derided as crap if it takes less than three hours, even if it's a game -- like NEXUS OPS -- that is clearly AT in every other respect.

In fact, it's NEXUS OPS' brevity that makes it unique in the canon of AT dice-rollin' combat games. That uniqueness is what makes it (IMO, of course) an eternal classic and the clear winner in this match-up.

Jason Lutes wrote:

Nexus Ops for me. I really don't enjoy TI3's design, it's pretty lacking in game-shui. If it was between TI 2nd edition and Nexus Ops, though, I'd vote TI2.

I don't know about the game-shui but I totally agree with the rest of this.

Beisaic wrote:

Bah, Ameritrash is as much about the experience as the game itself. My experience was bad, thus the game is bad.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I call "Hfdat BULLSHIT" on this.

This is pure fun-murderer "the game allows him to affect my insidiously brilliant plan, and is thus broken and suboptimal" sentiment.

I second the guy who said "your friend's a dick". He let the game go ahead so that he'd be able to say "let's not roll it back". Total dick-move, and especially so in a lengthy game like TI3. Find a better class of friends.

All that being said, it's got nothing to do with TI3, other than people sandbagging it for it's length, and in this case using that to play lawyerball.

(I own Nexus Ops. It's a fun game. I've never played TI3. I abstain from voting.)

However, I couldn't let nonsense like "It's the game's fault" go by.

Michael Barnes wrote:

Metalface, I don't know how you managed to frame me by fixing the Arms Trade to get me to take your REEF ENCOUNTER...I feel like I've been taken advantage of and I'm too dumb to understand the algorithms or whatever that make that even possible.

It's simple, you put it on your list.

I just find it interesting that it feels like some of the favorite games around here are games like TI3 and Descent, big epic games that tell stories and build memories, yadda yadda. And then they lose in the trashdome.

I can't help but wonder if that's not a function of the time commitment that these games demand. (OK Lutes- pay attention here) Less people are prone to play- and play regularly- a 4 hour plus game. The longer games just aren't going to be played nearly as much by _anyone_ as even a 3 hour game just because time is simply finite. I know people- completely badass gamers that know what's good- who never play TI3 or DESCENT precisely because of the length. And I know tons of people (myself included) that _want_ to play the 4 hour+ games more but either don't have time or can't get others to commit. Of course, a 4 hour game is relatively short when you're looking at some older stuff like DIPLOMACY, but the point is that there is a sort of threshold where the time commtiment starts to attrite even willing players- no matter how awesome the game may be.

metalface13 wrote:

I just find it interesting that it feels like some of the favorite games around here are games like TI3 and Descent, big epic games that tell stories and build memories, yadda yadda. And then they lose in the trashdome.

Huh? TI3 is currently winning by a 2:1 ratio.

metalface13 wrote:

I just find it interesting that it feels like some of the favorite games around here are games like TI3 and Descent, big epic games that tell stories and build memories, yadda yadda. And then they lose in the trashdome.

I finally understand it. Nearly every game that is really long (more than a few hours) is a flawed game. Even if it is otherwise great, the sheer length of play is a problem, because it is generally the result of another problem: downtime, fiddly rules, long setup times, difficult to teach, or worst of all... too long for what it is. These are legitimate problems, because they cause people to pick other games to play instead. And then the length itself can be a challenge, because unless your players are both prompt and dedicated, your overall playtime is reduced by the last person to arrive and the first person to leave.

To justify such a long game, it has to remain fresh and entertaining for hours, so it can't get bogged down in repetitive stuff. There need to be a variety of activities and options and variations that can come up, so that the game can evolve even during a single play.

We AT players want to like the long games, because short games don't offer enough time or even enough game to immerse the players in a narrative. But the narrative can still be lacking if it's tedious.

Juniper wrote:

metalface13 wrote:

I just find it interesting that it feels like some of the favorite games around here are games like TI3 and Descent, big epic games that tell stories and build memories, yadda yadda. And then they lose in the trashdome.

Huh? TI3 is currently winning by a 2:1 ratio.

That's why I said 'feels,' my observation was by no means scientific.

To make this a real contest it should be Ti3 vs a BJ.

TI3