Trashdome - Tide Of Iron vs Memoir '44

generalpf wrote:

We still don't even have scenarios that make proper use of the Terrain Pack.

I can't believe people will buy a bunch of game components just to wait for someone else to make use of them. This was less of an expansion and more of a test to see if anyone would buy into the BattleLore system based on speculation of what it could be later.

generalpf wrote:

This is crap, man. You did not need 2 or 4. 5 was recommended.

The thing about the M'44 expansions is that they contain very little, apart from cosmetic stuff. If you get the Eastern Front scenarios off the web, then you can play them with the base set, as long as you don't mind that your Soviet Army isn't colored red, or that your frozen river doesn't look frozen. Sure, there is a small number of genuinely new hexes and chits, and a Commissar chip, but those are easy to improvise.

The winter board and the snowy hills aren't essential to game play, and are only needed for looks, but the same thing can be said about nearly everything else in the Eastern Front expansion. I don't understand why red tanks are considered crucial while white hills are dispensable. All of it should have come in one box.

I don't know how many of the people posting about these games have given TOI's Designer Series Book a chance yet. Borg does a scenario, so does Chad Jenson of CCE fame, the guy that did Squad Leader (Frank Chadwick??), the guy from Rise and Decline of the 3rd Reich... many, many major wargame designers and it is awesome.

A really, really good idea, so much so that I've heard they're doing the same thing for Descent, Mote Cook (from 3.0 D&D guide) has apparently made a Descent scenario... I don't know who else is on board but this idea of books from designers is a real winner and may be the one thing that keeps me playing TOI instead of running to my Uncles to play CoH.

If you like TOI, the first expansion to get is this book (even though you'll miss out on about 6 scenario's if you don't have DotF, you still get 19 more!!)

Also the newest expansion "Normandy" seriously changes the gameplay of the base set, although DotF did very little (except bring Dana Lombardy of board!!), the new one does a ton in terms of what is now possible with this system.

CoH is a good game and I love the action points but I really feel that TOI does something different, Barnes touched on that by calling it "Hollywood", it's that exciting!

P.S. I have never broken a fig (in over 50 plays), I have never drilled bigger holes in the base (just play and they work in), and we enjoy setting it up while looking over the map and figuring out our plans for the game. Just sayin'.

I pre-ordered Tide of Iron. I may get around to playing Memior '44 someday, if I don't have anything better to do.

TOI

This is a tough one. I've played Memoir quite a lot and it's a good, fun game that looks cool, is very accessible and though it might not feel like WW2 to experts, it does scratch my WW2 itch.

I've only played two games of ToI, and though I wasn't blown away, I got the feeling that I would definitely have to play it some more. It looks even cooler than Memoir, feels more real, is way more tactical, and can be played easily by 4 players which seems to work quite well. And I don't give shit about unbalanced scenarios. Dry your tears, cry babies, war isn't fair and if one side's having a hard time, pulling off a win is so much more satisfactory.

In the end ToI wins because it's simply a better game. And because I'm a FFG fanboy who apparantly fail to realize how unbalanced their games are and how badly the rulebooks are written.[/irony]

My vote: Tide of Iron.

A pro wrestling match? More like two paraplegic hobos fighting over a half-eaten Big Mac.

M'44: Sucks. Ass. The worst of the C&C lot. Oh, it's kinda' fun for the first go or two, but after that you quickly realize the game mostly comes down to one guy getting all the cards for a particular flank and shooting the living shit out of your squads/platoons/regiments/whatever the hell they're supposed to be, who just sit there and take it. And don't go giving me that "well, in real life you don't have total control" bullshit either. "Realism" does not give a game a license to be no fun, and that goes double for a game as abstract as Memoir. Fuck Memoir '44.

ToI:

Impression after first play:

"Wow! This game kicks ass! It looks great, gives you a bunch of different strategic options, and has a good amount of meat on its bones complexity-wise. That's a rare thing nowadays."

Impression after a good 15 or so plays:

"Wow! This game is a total pain in the ass! It's like playing Squad Leader without all the period-specific flavor, but with even MORE procedural bullshit and record keeping bric-a-brac to wade through. Oh, and is it just me, or is EVERY friggin' scenario basically the same; run tothe objective hex within 7 turns and try not to get blown all to hell?"

Yeah, ToI lost its luster for me pretty damn quickly. And you think Memoir's expansions were bad? DotF gives you the British OoB, and what is it? A brown version of the US OoB. What about the desert terrain? Brown versions of the European countryside terrain with different nouns attatched to them. Yeah, it added AT guns, but those should have been in the base game to begin with.

Don't even get me started on the scenario book. You know, FFG, I can put up with the fact that just about every one of your rulebooks is full of errors and poorly organized, but when your actual product IS A FUCKING BOOK OF SCENARIOS, is it asking too much for you to print all of the information necessary to play those scenarios, all of them, IN THAT FUCKING BOOK?

Still, ToI doesn't totally suck. Memoir '44 does.

Vote: ToI

mjl1783 wrote:

Don't even get me started on the scenario book. You know, FFG, I can put up with the fact that just about every one of your rulebooks is full of errors and poorly organized, but when your actual product IS A FUCKING BOOK OF SCENARIOS, is it asking too much for you to print all of the information necessary to play those scenarios, all of them, IN THE FUCKING BOOK.

Vote: ToI

There were a few typo's yeah. I think 5 or 6 all said, still it was totally playable and the errata is available now. The book is a great idea regardless, despite a few little typo's it is a great product because the scenario's are good. It is probably difficult to put something of that scope together... am I making exscuses because I love it...

Fuck yeah.

But you voted wisely anyway.

mjl1783 wrote:

A pro wrestling match? More like two paraplegic hobos fighting over a half-eaten Big Mac.

I would totally pay to see this.

I have never played ToI...but I would of course be interested. But I am not really a WWII "fan", or into the idea of war sim at all. I simply like fun battle dice games.

I really dig the CnC system in all it's ports. Battle Cry would likely be my favourite if it had been developed later and benefited from some of the rule and deck adjustments. I stil play this quite a bit on gamtable just because it is the only one you CAN play at a browser level. But the back of the board retreat rule is just stupid and I can't believe it survived testing! Also that ALL OUT OFFENSIVE card is not only crazy, but to instantly reshuffle it in so the crazy may live again is...crazy! But it is still fun enough. Memoir though does it quite well in my opinion. I "get" the wah wah some of you have about it, but I am long hardened at the forge of Blood Bowl where hours turn on a single d6. So running out of section and/or the dice going off has never been a detriment to my fun. I like the suffocation feeling it inspires It also means you have to try and play clever. Most just charge in and hope for hot dice, (I tend to do this to) but with some more tactical play you can create some very tense moments.
I also quite like BattleLore and have never understood the hate here for that. It all seems to sit on the business model, which I accept. But as a game...great fun! But again, I think it is hilarious when a sudden burst of magic causes the shit to hit the fan. I have never craved balance in games like this. Only some clever feints and a handful of dice

So...since it appears ToI is trying harder to sim it up, and I only want to play, my vote goes for

Memoir44

Memoir '44

Memoir sucks

vote:TOI

I think what we're seeing in this edition of Trashdome is that there are a lot of closet Euro sympathizers who respond to the "simple, easy-peasy" gameplay of M44. These are folks who are clucking at cutesy-poo bits and incredibly vague and inspecific mention of "Axis" soldiers. Probably the same folks who secretly own T2R: MARKLIN.

Vote ToI. No, it's not SL, ASL, CoH, or CC:E. But it's a big dumb sex version of WWII. Kinda sloppy, a little too bulky, and not 100% accurate or whatever but at least it's fun. has cool plastic tanks, and you roll dice a bunch. AND THAT MY FRIENDS IS THE AT WAY.

There were a few typo's yeah. I think 5 or 6 all said, still it was totally playable and the errata is available now.

It was not totally playable. I got it as a gift, and naturally, the first thing I did was flip to the Don Greenwood scenario, as I'm sure many people did. Hey, who wouldn't want to see what the ASL guy did with ToI? Well, they didn't print any of the objective hexes on the map, and had the victory conditions so ass backwards it was absolutely impossible for one side to win. That's not the only scenario they screwed up that badly, either. I know the errata is available, but god damn, didn't they proofread it first? How do you miss such a glaring error?

That said, I don't want to come off as being overly harsh on the book. It's a great idea, and I think FFG deserves a lot of credit for putting it together. John Hill's scenario is probably the best ToI scenario I played, but that's because he just threw half of the game right out the window and tweaked it around to make something with his own personal signature on it.

generalpf wrote:

This is crap, man. You did not need 2 or 4. 5 was recommended.

In this hobby, "do not need" is not an option.

JonJacob wrote:

I don't know how many of the people posting about these games have given TOI's Designer Series Book a chance yet. Borg does a scenario, so does Chad Jenson of CCE fame, the guy that did Squad Leader (Frank Chadwick??), the guy from Rise and Decline of the 3rd Reich... many, many major wargame designers and it is awesome.

This sounds like a really cool idea. Even Jack Radey made a scenario.

BTW the designer of SQUAD LEADER is John Hill.

Michael Barnes wrote:

No, it's not SL, ASL, CoH, or CC:E. But it's a big dumb sex version of WWII. Kinda sloppy, a little too bulky, and not 100% accurate or whatever but at least it's fun. has cool plastic tanks, and you roll dice a bunch. AND THAT MY FRIENDS IS THE AT WAY.

Wait a minute. It kind of sounds like you described M44 there! What are you saying people ought to vote for again?