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× WELCOME TO TRASHDOME!

This is part of a series of bloody matches to the death. Show support for your favorite game so it will do better in the fight. You can support it by writing why you think its the better game and more importantly by betting (i.e. voting for) it. Please make it clear for when I check the bets later. You have until Friday when I tally the bets and declare the winner. I will reserve my bet for any tie-breakers.

Although you should be familiar with both games, there is no rule that says you have to have played both of them. The only rule in Trashdome is this;

Two games enter! One game leaves!

Trashdome - Merchants Of Venus VS Risk 2210 AD

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25 May 2009 15:34 - 26 May 2009 16:47 #30489 by ChristopherMD


WELCOME TO TRASHDOME!

This is part of a series of bloody matches to the death. Show support for your favorite game so it will do better in the fight. You can support it by writing why you think its the better game and more importantly by betting on it. End your first post in this thread with the title of the game you're placing a bet on (i.e. voting for) so its clear to me when reading it later. You have until Friday when I tally the bets and declare the winner. Counting expansions or not is entirely up to you just as playing with them or not is. I will reserve my bet for any tie-breakers.

Although you should be familiar with both games, there is no rule that says you have to have played both of them. The only rule in Trashdome is this;

Two games enter! One game leaves!
Last edit: 26 May 2009 16:47 by ChristopherMD.

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25 May 2009 15:58 #30491 by OldHippy
Well, Risk 2210 AD got me back into games and it's release was what started this landlslide of money going out of my pocket and to my local game store (I will not buy on line unless I have to!!). I have ushered seven of my friends into boardgaming madness using Risk 2210 AD, and I still love it and will play it to this day. Plus all the nostalgia based around the Risk titles in general for me. On top of that Risk 2210 AD is actually a good game and I still enjoy it no matter how many cool new games come along.

I have nothing to say about Merchants of Venus... saw it being played at a game store... never played it.

Vote: RISK 2210 AD

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25 May 2009 17:00 #30494 by dave
Finally, an easy one.

Merchants of Venus

Now, it is arguable whether MoV falls under the A/T umbrella, especially if you play it without the optional rules, which is how most play it. Sure, I'm flying a "spaceship" with a "laser" delivering "boom-boom juice" or some such, but I could just as well be a "train" with a "cowcatcher" delivering "corn". It would just be harder to explain the teleportation gates.

Risk 2210 AD is a fine multi-player conquest game that, like most chrome-laden games in the genre, is probably a poor fit for the game-of-the-week format that stains most groups.

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25 May 2009 18:13 #30495 by maka
I haven't played Risk 2210 but Merchant of Venus is one of my all time favorite games. True, it's not exactly AT as there's almost no direct conflict, but to me it's a very thematic game and that's what I love about it. True, this style of Science Fiction trading game in the vein of computer classics like Elite and Frontier is just one of my favorites ever, so I'm a little biased... :D

But also, I think the way the supply and demand system works in the game is really clever and simple, and the game also has a kind of RPG feeling with the way you upgrade your ship or trade it for a different one. The exploration part is also fun, as is figuring out the best routes as the cultures are discovered.

So, my choice is clear:

Merchant of Venus

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25 May 2009 20:32 #30499 by Bulwyf
Easy choice for me.

Merchant of Venus

-Will

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25 May 2009 21:46 #30503 by Sagrilarus
By Maryland law, I am required to cast my vote for Merchants of Venus. I will gladly pay $30 for a complete copy.

Sag.

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25 May 2009 22:53 #30504 by mjl1783
Hope springs eternal, eh Sag?

Anyway, this is a bit of an odd matchup, and I've got a feeling I'm going to break my streak of picking trashdome winners, but this one is another no contest as far as I'm concerned.

Risk 2210 AD is all right, it's kicked up, more thematic, modernized version of Risk, but at the end of the day, it's still Risk. Now, there's nothing wrong with Risk, mind you, but I've pretty much moved on. When it comes time for a DOAM game to hit the table, any title bearing the "R" word is going to be WAY at the back of the line. Give me Starcraft, TI:3, QftDL, War on Terror, or any one of a ton of others. I'd probably rather even play the Black Ops version than 2210.

MoV, on the other hand, is a classic that has aged more gracefully than most of its peers. There's no game ahead of this one in the line, because there are no other games in the same line. It's a one-of-a-kind title.

Vote: MoV

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26 May 2009 05:31 #30507 by mads b.
Risk 2210 was the first game I bought when I got back into gaming (by being introduced to Twilight Imperium 2ed btw) and I'll still gladly play it. The turn limit keeps it from going on for too long, the moon and the water territories open new, exciting strategic options, and the command cards generates lots and lots of mayhem. Some might scuff at it saying "it's still Risk", but that's actually a big plus for me. Most people can recognize Risk and still want to play it, so it's easy to upgrade to a more gamey (and fun!) game of 2210.

Another thing worth mentioning is the fact that you start each game by making three (I think) territories into nuclear wasteland that are impassable - meaning that the game board can be radically changed from game to game.

I've never played Merchants of Venus, but one the one hand we have a game about merchants who are probably trying to gain money in order to impress a space duke or some other lame thing, and on the other hand a game about Machines Of Destruction duking it out on the moon and in underwater colonies. Not a hard choice, really.

My vote: Risk 2210

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26 May 2009 08:24 #30510 by Notahandle
Sagrilarus wrote:
"I will gladly pay $300 for a complete copy."
Sold! Ker-ching!

mjl1783 wrote:
"There's no game ahead of [Mov] in the line, because there are no other games in the same line. It's a one-of-a-kind title."
Why is that? Why don't any other space trading games compare?

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26 May 2009 09:20 #30513 by mrmarcus
Merchant of Venus


It has a lot more to it than any version of Risk could.

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26 May 2009 09:24 #30514 by maka

"There's no game ahead of [Mov] in the line, because there are no other games in the same line. It's a one-of-a-kind title."
Why is that? Why don't any other space trading games compare?


Well... It's one of the few where you only control one ship, so it's got a small RPG feeling, although instead of improving your character, you upgrade your ship. It's got the element of exploration too, and a solid but simple and fast to use demand-supply system. Star Trader, from the old SPI Ares magazines seems to have a better trading model, but it seems to be also more abstract and complex (and lacks the exploration aspect). Also Star Traders, another 80's game which seems to be based on the Asimov Foundation universe, is about fulfilling contracts, not freely trading in different goods. BTW, I haven't tried either of these two...

There are some other good Space trading solo games, but being solo they can't really compete with MoV when you want to play with other people. Free Trader, a free card based print and play game is pretty good (and hard too) and feels a lot like the old Elite computer games. Unlike MoV it's got illegal goods (which can be intercepted by police ships) and pirates, so it's a bit more random. AstroNavis Merchant and AstroNavis Merchant Advanced, also p'n'p but not free are nice, hard, but are also about getting contracts. They're also pretty random.

Last, I recently tried Smugglers of the Galaxy which seems to have gathered very little interest, but is a good "adventure" game also in line with the old Elite computer games. There is the trading, with different levels of demand for a few types of goods, but it's really more about the "experience" with lots of random encounters that affect the game considerably. Also, just trading normally won't win you the game, as you've got to take advantage of other opportunities and trade in illegal goods (with considerable risks) to really make a difference. There's also pirates, bounty hunting and some contracts that get you a lot of profit. It's got lots of randomness, and the planets change all the time (they are discarded when you sell and new ones placed on the map), so planning ahead is not possible unlike in MoV where as the cultures are revealed, players can plan their routes for maximum profit and use them for the whole game (although lack of goods at some points will force players to switch routes too).

In the end, MoV gets the combination of a solid economy system, the exploration aspect and the RPG feel almost right and only fails in its optional combat rules, but most players feel those really shouldn't have been there in the first place, and the game is really just about the trading...

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26 May 2009 09:45 #30516 by moofrank
The only people voting for Risk are the ones who haven't played Mov.

Cool.

Add another vote for Merchants of Venus.

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26 May 2009 10:02 #30520 by Notahandle
maka wrote:
"Well... It's one of the few where you only control one ship, so it's got a small RPG feeling, although instead of improving your character, you upgrade your ship. It's got the element of exploration too, and a solid but simple and fast to use demand-supply system. Star Trader, from the old SPI Ares magazines seems to have a better trading model, but it seems to be also more abstract and complex (and lacks the exploration aspect)."
Thanks for the great explanation. The above jogged my memory, it's the single ship and exploration aspect that makes MoV distinctive.

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26 May 2009 10:20 - 26 May 2009 10:33 #30523 by mads b.
Moofrank wrote:

The only people voting for Risk are the ones who haven't played Mov.


I guess MoV is probably the better game. And I'm sure it has an elegant demand-supply mechanism that you can admire while fondling your fanny pack. But this is TRASHdome and it doesn't get that much more trashy than 2210. You throw lots and lots of dice, you will agonize as your nuclear commander is once again worthless (or laugh in the face of your opponents as he annihilates them), you can launch an attack from the moon, and much more. Hell, 2210 has even got an auction mechanism.

But I see where this is going and I therefore suggest we rename the site to GroceryStore: ameri"Iwillthwartyourplansbyselectingthebuilderrolemuahaha"

Edit: spelling
Last edit: 26 May 2009 10:33 by mads b..

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26 May 2009 11:17 #30525 by Michael Barnes
RISK 2210 is garbage. It's easily one of the most overrated AT games ever published. The thing is, the positive comments are almost always defensive- "but...but...it has nukes!", "but...but...you can fight on the moon!". The game is cluttered, sloppy, and out of all the RISK updates over the past 10 years, it's the most tentative. If you want jumped-up RISK, go for the ORIGINAL TRILOGY edition or RISK 2008. All of them are better than 2210. You can see how 2210 was really just a warm-up for the better RISKs to come as a lot of the elements in those are there...just junked up with a bunch of needless bulk.

The last time I played 2210, I made a big to-do that it was radically different and that it had all this awesome stuff in it. The group (all AT-ers) completely turned their noses up at it. This was after TI3 had come out, so expectations were high. It made me realize how 2210 is really kind of the last stand of crappy 1990s style American design. And it lost.

MoV is one of, if not _the_, great pick-up-and-deliver games. Unlike most games in that genre, which tend to be oversimplified junk, MoV has a lot of detail and RPG-ish development. There's also a lot of randomness and unpredictability so optimal routes and min-maxing are diminished. It's incredibly fun to play, and I think it's emerged as a timeless classic.

Obviously, the vote is for MoV.

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