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× WELCOME TO TRASHDOME!

This is part of a series of bloody matches to the death. Show support for your favorite game so it will do better in the fight. You can support it by writing why you think its the better game and more importantly by betting (i.e. voting for) it. Please make it clear for when I check the bets later. You have until Friday when I tally the bets and declare the winner. I will reserve my bet for any tie-breakers.

Although you should be familiar with both games, there is no rule that says you have to have played both of them. The only rule in Trashdome is this;

Two games enter! One game leaves!

Trashdome - Merchants Of Venus VS Risk 2210 AD

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26 May 2009 16:57 #30561 by san il defanso
Because Merchant of Venus is a funny title, it gets my vote.

MoV

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26 May 2009 17:03 #30563 by MattFantastic

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26 May 2009 17:07 #30565 by mads b.
Halo was released late november 2001. Risk 2210 was released the very same year (don't know when exactly), so I find it hard to believe that the power armour on the box should be inspired by Halo. Space Marines, probably. Mech Warrior, you bet. But not Halo.

Now, we've seen some arguments as to why MoV is the better game and that's great. But other than "bad", "junked" and the fact that Barnes played the game with the wrong group, we haven't heard any serious arguments as to why 2210 supposedly sucks.

Oh, and one question. What makes MoV a space game other than the flavour (map, name of goods, weapons and stuff)? I'm not trying to say "it could be about medieval trading - yuk!", I'm just curious. Somebody mentioned teleports, but other than that?

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26 May 2009 17:39 #30569 by mjl1783

Now, we've seen some arguments as to why MoV is the better game and that's great. But other than "bad", "junked" and the fact that Barnes played the game with the wrong group, we haven't heard any serious arguments as to why 2210 supposedly sucks.


I wouldn't necessarily say it sucks, but I don't see any reason to either own or play it. If I want a dirt simple dice-a-thon, why play it when I can play Nexus Ops, which is shorter, leaner, and still has unit differentiation? If I want something more complicated, then I can spit in a random direction and hit a better game than 2210.

My real problem with the game is that it's Risk with such-and-such. I don't want to wade through all the such-and-such if I'm still going to be playing Risk because, let's face it, Risk ain't that hot. I know it's a classic, I know all these people still play it, I know it's introduced more people to gaming than Carcassonne ever will, I know all that. It's still not that much fun to play. If the game were to be released today, without the pedigree, we'd likely be shitting all over it.

Oh, and one question. What makes MoV a space game other than the flavour (map, name of goods, weapons and stuff)? I'm not trying to say "it could be about medieval trading - yuk!", I'm just curious. Somebody mentioned teleports, but other than that?


Most of the real sci-fi stuff is in the optional rules, like the lasers and bad guy aliens. Still, the movement rules are pretty space-y. You can't just stop out in space (inertia), and you have you pre-plot your course in some spots (piloting). You've got technological upgrades for your ships, teleporting, orbiting space bases, and other things that are part of the gameplay, not just flavor. Also, there's the whole bit about exploring strange new worlds, seeking out new life and new civilizations.

It doesn't necessarily have to be a space game, but it's definitely got to have some sort of fantasy theme.

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26 May 2009 19:00 #30575 by maka
mads b. wrote:

Halo was released late november 2001. Risk 2210 was released the very same year (don't know when exactly), so I find it hard to believe that the power armour on the box should be inspired by Halo. Space Marines, probably. Mech Warrior, you bet. But not Halo.


Yes and No. Halo had been hyped since a few years back. I used to be a fan of Bungie when they released the Marathon games and the Myth series which were amazing games at the time. Halo was announced as a Mac game and hyped beyond belief. In 99 Steve Jobs included footage of the game in his speech at Mac World expo (see: games.ign.com/articles/821/821618p1.html ). And after a short google search, here's the actual video:


Now, do I think it inspired Risk 2210? I can't say... but the dates don't disprove it :)

Oh, and one question. What makes MoV a space game other than the flavour (map, name of goods, weapons and stuff)? I'm not trying to say "it could be about medieval trading - yuk!", I'm just curious. Somebody mentioned teleports, but other than that?


That's a good question, and it's funny because Merchant of Venus was originally a game about trading spices. It seems a Spice company wanted a boardgame to promote their stuff and AH asked Richard Hamblen to design it. He designed an early version of MoV but was refused because it was too complex. They ended up designing another game for the company and Richard Hamblen created Merchant of Venus from his older design.

But, that said, I do think MoV manages to convey the theme of Space Trading very well anyway. There're enough rules that relate only to the Science Ficton theme, as it has been said. The way the orbits work, the teleports, the actual ships with their different systems, the equipment, the lasers, shields, etc... They all have their rules and they all work like you'd expect in a Sci Fi setting. The problem is that "trading" is such a universal theme that with a few tweeks a model can be easily adapted to many settings... It's not really a problem with the game

Then, the game has a lot of backdrop text about all the cultures and elements of the game. Why movement works like it does (which is a bit gamey, but works fine too), etc... I found reading the rules to be quite entertaining because of it.

BTW, I adapted MoV for the piecepack game system (for a design contest about "porting" games and I used a fantasy/medieval setting :p (the piecepack suit symbols don't look much like Science Fiction, so it seemed like a logical step...) It was called The Wandering Merchant ( www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/30833 )

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26 May 2009 19:11 #30576 by Michael Barnes
Nah, I don't think 2210 necessarily had the foresight to copy HALO and ride its coattails to massive success...my "power suit fatigue" is more general, it's not just HALO-related. At this point, if it ain't from STARSHIP TROOPERS (the book), a Space Marine or a Doom Trooper, I never want to see power armor again. When I see that stupid guy on the cover of 2210, all I think is "ugh". I think I'm kind of done with mechs too...yikes, another strike on 2210...

So why is 2210 a bad game? Because it bolts a bunch of stuff on to RISK and shows that you _can_ do that to the core RISK system, but it's not always a good idea. The game doesn't have enough compelling depth or conceptual theme to support all the bells and whistles and the result is a version of RISK with a lot of glued-on crap that never really feels integrated or essential to the experience. Nukes- so what. SUPREMACY did nukes 15 years earlier and in a much more interesting and thematic way.

Like I sad, later on you can see where Daviau and co. kind of got it- OT RISK has probably the highest level of conceptual theme of any mass-market game I've ever played. Period. And it brings forward a lot of 2210's ideas. As does RISK '08, which is really very stripped down game with much better taste in terms of tweaks to the core system.

When 2210 came out, there was a lot of hoo-ha about how it "fixed" RISK. Remember, it came into the world during the Era of Eurogame Domination so it was still a couple of years ahead of the Glorious AT Revolution. And it shows. It feels like all that clumsy, cluttered design sense that had pretty much driven gamers to Eurogames was still there although it was reaching for innovation. That's good, but the resultant game wasn't. I think it broke more than it fixed, but then again I'm one of those people who thought RISK wasn't fucked up to begin with.

In the end, I don't think that the piles and piles of added fluff really amount to much. It still feels pretty abstract (again, contrast the OT RISK), it's still too long for what it is (despite the turn limit), and at the end of the day it just feels like a dinosaur. More so than AXIS AND ALLIES (RIP) did last week.

But it's neither here nor there. It looks like 2210 is going to the graveyard unless there's a huge rally.

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26 May 2009 20:17 - 26 May 2009 20:18 #30581 by Dr. Mabuse
I played MoV a couple of weeks ago and I came away a bit underwhelmed. There was little to no interaction between players and as the game progressed there was no way to slow down the leader.

At least with something like Antiquity you can at least drop some pollution on your opponent. I guess I wanted to see a bit of combat or piracy for the least.

Risk 2210. Why? Nukes!
Last edit: 26 May 2009 20:18 by Dr. Mabuse.

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27 May 2009 00:29 - 27 May 2009 00:30 #30601 by Sagrilarus
maka wrote:

It seems a Spice company wanted a boardgame to promote their stuff and AH asked Richard Hamblen to design it.


Maryland law also requires that I vote for anything associated with McCormick & Company, Inc.

Make that two votes for MoV.

Sag.
Last edit: 27 May 2009 00:30 by Sagrilarus.

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27 May 2009 00:45 #30602 by Michael Barnes
Whoa...ease up MJ...you're getting close to "future Cracked LCD article subject" there...not to mention a larger cultural discussion we could have that would demonstrate how video games are starting to have a tremendous impact on the aesthetics of other mediums.

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27 May 2009 12:15 #30625 by mjl1783
Dude, you're a nerd.

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27 May 2009 12:52 #30626 by Michael Barnes
Hey, at least I'm not voting for a game that has a fake HALO dude on the cover.

Did Ken B. come in here yet to cast his vote for the losing game?

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27 May 2009 16:11 #30658 by MrZir
Just from reading the rules for each, MoV is a game that I would like to play sometime whereas 2210 would always get bumped for something similar but better.

MoV

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27 May 2009 16:38 #30666 by ChristopherMD
This might become the second time a pick-up-and-deliver game beats a game that's more commonly associated with AT-fans. You guys sure like running errands.

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27 May 2009 17:00 #30670 by Bulwyf
Mad Dog wrote:

This might become the second time a pick-up-and-deliver game beats a game that's more commonly associated with AT-fans. You guys sure like running errands.



No. I just like good games.


-Will

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27 May 2009 20:20 #30687 by Beisaic
I have played neither, but I only have interest in playing Merchants of Venus.

Vote: Merchants of Venus.

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