Merchants Of Venus VS Magic Realm VS Gunslinger

Notahandle wrote:

Hmm, doesn't this translate into Euro vs AT vs wargame?

Are you calling MoV an Eurogame??? Don't you dare


BTW, for people wanting to give Magic Realm a try, download Realmspeak ( magicrealm.dewkid.com/rspeak/realmspeak.htm ). It handles all the rules although you still have to have at least a basic understanding of how to play the game. It can also be used to play PBEM and live online.

Dogmatix wrote:

mjl1783 wrote:

Well, Grudunza, if you ever want to do a PBEM or live VASSAL thing, I'm game.

I'm in too. The VASSAL module is a bit complicated, but I've been dicking around with it trying to get a handle on it.

Yeah, that's the thing... My hesitation is two-fold, as I don't know how to play the game, to begin with, and then there's the Vassal module to figure out. I am interested in learning the game, though, so I'll print out the rules and start poring over those soon.

maka wrote:
"Are you calling MoV an Eurogame??? Don't you dare "
Yes. I dared!!

I really want to play all of these, but MR just edges out the other two based on theme alone.

Magic Realm

When I finally played MR I was Incedibly disappointed. I stared at the board in stunned disbelief that there wasn't more to it. Where was the wonderment and magic that had eluded me for so long? Detailed yes- but clunky too. Incredibly cluncky. There are some really good ideas in the game and things there were *Great* compared to what was availble at the time it was published. Now- there are better games out there.

Gunslinger is pretty cool. Simultaneous programmed actions and lots of charts. It never gets played- again there are probably better gunfight games out there now but I haven't played them.

MoV- never played. I'm not for economic games or pick-up/delivery. Unless it feels more adventury than economic, i;d probably pass.

Gunslinger FOTW

Steve"Desperado"Avery

Stephen Avery wrote:

Gunslinger is pretty cool. Simultaneous programmed actions and lots of charts. It never gets played- again there are probably better gunfight games out there now but I haven't played them.

Steve"Desperado"Avery

There are better gunfight games? I'm not even sure there are even *other*, let alone better, gunfight games other than maybe that lightweight Worthington title...Way of the Gun?

Ohhhhhhohoho... Way of the Gun... That one was bad. I mean bad.

Shellhead wrote:

The King in Yellow wrote:

Despite never fully comprehending it, I'm voting Magic Realm.
Opening that box and sorting through its contents has been the closest thing to a mystical experience ever caused by a board game: The infinite combination of hexagonal tiles, with their hidden paths and tunnels and their brilliantly colorful "enchanted" sides. The character portraits that were rather dark in theme and pretty amazing for their time (they were/are oil-painting-like and kinda translucent - as a kid I would hold them up to the light in order to bring out more detail). The huge variety of counters and cards.
Couple that with the obtuse rules, and it was like attending some difficult alchemal school where the struggles were great but the potential reward greater.
Never before and never since have I encountered the like.

This reminds me of comments by someone at TOS, talking about Android. She rated it a 10 even though she has no intention of ever playing it, just because she considered it to be a special cultural artifact or some such.

I think you misunderstood me, Shellhead. I never said that I never played it, but I was referencing the fact there is so much subtlety to the game, and I have never been able to grasp every nuance. For instance, you can find a wealth of information on MR by experienced players who will tell you that even though the Amazon and Captain are almost identical characters, stat-wise, the Captain is built to lead large forces of natives. There are several points of that nature that one only learns by playing the game several different times with several different characters. Unfortunately, the game is too long to be able to devote that much time to it.

Dogmatix wrote:

There are better gunfight games? I'm not even sure there are even *other*, let alone better, gunfight games other than maybe that lightweight Worthington title...Way of the Gun?

Does Bang count?

The King in Yellow wrote:

I think you misunderstood me, Shellhead. I never said that I never played it, but I was referencing the fact there is so much subtlety to the game, and I have never been able to grasp every nuance. For instance, you can find a wealth of information on MR by experienced players who will tell you that even though the Amazon and Captain are almost identical characters, stat-wise, the Captain is built to lead large forces of natives. There are several points of that nature that one only learns by playing the game several different times with several different characters. Unfortunately, the game is too long to be able to devote that much time to it.

The Captain is friendly with three of native groups - the guard, soldiers or patrol - i.e. they're cheaper than average to hire - and he can easily start at the same dwelling with either the Guard or Soldiers (player's choice). Plus he gets a free phase at dwellings due to his reputation (spend it haggling for a good hire price)...So yeah, good leader! But that's just basic character strategy....

mjl1783 wrote:

Ohhhhhhohoho... Way of the Gun... That one was bad. I mean bad.

I played the basic game and it wasn't a complete waste of time, but it really didn't have much going for it. The advanced rules posted to the web seem to add more interesting stuff, but I haven't had a chance to play it yet...

I played the basic game and it wasn't a complete waste of time

Maybe not if you played some of the later scenarios, but we played the first one or two with the basic rules and the game was pretty much garbage. Now, I don't usually say that about games, but there was no reason to do anything but stand there and shoot. Might as well have been playing Yahtzee. I mean, when your game makes Heroscape look like some intense tactical experience by comparison, you know there's a problem.

Then we tried some of the later scenarios with the advanced rules. Meh. It wasn't quite as bad, but most of the scenarios have one side trying to exit the map by getting past all the dudes that are out to kill them. The problem is, though, that after you get shot once, your movement allowance decreases. OK, that's realistic I guess, but it also means that you're basically screwed once you take even a little damage because you'll be hobbling along at a snail's pace while the other team just shoots the living shit out of you.

It's never hit the table after the first few plays. We all wanted to like it, but we've got so many man-to-man tactical games that this one seems like a waste of time, even if the theme is pretty cool. For that, though, we've got Gunslinger.

Notahandle wrote:

maka wrote:
"Are you calling MoV an Eurogame??? Don't you dare "
Yes. I dared!!

I was afraid you did now don't blame me when the Qossuth come by your house, show you one of their psychotic sculptures and you go totally mad

Seriously... to me MoV is a very thematic game, more than any euro I've ever played (and I've only played the more thematic euros).

First, the mechanics are specifically tailored to the theme. There's a very good supply-demand mechanic (both because it works pretty well but also because it's quite simple and fast to play) which also adds a BIG element of randomness and variety to the game. The ships carry stuff just like you'd expect, with different modules you can add to them to make them better. It all works as you'd expect coming from similar computer games such as Elite.

The exploration mechanic which also adds loads of randomness and variety is very thematic, and it also adds a lot of interesting decisions to the game, so it's not just a dry buy/sell game. You really feel you're there, exploring space.

Maybe it helps to be a science fiction nut like me, but I find MoV to be a very immersive game. No euro even comes close to this (Not even Goldland, which is pretty thematic for an euro).

Add to that all the details that were added to the game such as explanations about each race even including who each person you can give passage to is and what their motives are, and you get a very lively setting that manages what very few games manage: to create an original "universe" for the game that is compelling enough. Funnily enough, the other game that manages to do this is also from Richard Hamblen: Magic Realm

Now... What MoV is not is a game of direct conflict. I find it hard to classify the game as AT, but that doesn't mean it's an euro either... There must be another way to call heavily thematic games with little direct conflict... maybe "HTGwLDC"... or then again maybe not

BTW, if you want to see how MoV would be if it was an eurogame, you might want to check Duck Dealer which was supposedly inspired by MoV. In my opinion they just took everything that made the game fun, added a lot of gamey mechanics that don't make sense with the theme and then, tried to copy MoV's wonderful humor (made by someone that clearly understood science fiction from within) with pretty awful results (the title of the game is enough proof).

Now I'll go off to see some Rock Videos before I sell them all to the next space trader...

Dammit maka, stop using facts to undermine my elegant Euro vs AT vs wargame categorisation!
maka wrote:
" First ... supply-demand mechanic"
Euro.

maka wrote:
" The exploration mechanic which also adds loads of randomness..." NotaEuro.
" ...and variety is very thematic, and it also adds a lot of interesting decisions..." NotaEuro.
" ...not just a dry buy/sell game." How can buy/sell not be dry? Euro.
Phew! You nearly had me there!

maka wrote:
" ...explanations about each race even including who each person you can give passage to is and what their motives are"
Rats! NotaEuro.

maka wrote:
" What MoV is not is a game of direct conflict."
Hah! Euro.

The result for your four paragraphs are: Euro, Euro, NotaEuro, Euro. Three out of four show it's a Euro. So a vote for MoV is a vote for Euros. If MoV wins it'll be another chink in the crumbling edifice of Trashdome. You guys keep it up and Mad Dog'll have to rename it EuroDome, then he'll be rabid.

maka wrote:
" BTW, if you want to see how MoV would be if it was an eurogame, you might want to check Duck Dealer which was supposedly inspired by MoV. In my opinion they just took everything that made the game fun, added a lot of gamey mechanics that don't make sense with the theme..."
You know that I bought Schweig!'s copy of Duck Dealer, right? Mutter, mutter, mumble, grumble...

well... supply-demand could be grouped together with buy-sell so that's one not two and anyway is buy and sell in SPACE!!!! and look at what you're dealing with: Rock videos, Space Spice, etc... euro? Not a chance!

And about the game not being one of direct conflict, that might make it not AT, but hey, look at all all the crop of adventure games without direct conflict... are those euros too???

"You know that I bought Schweig!'s copy of Duck Dealer, right? Mutter, mutter, mumble, grumble..."

LOL