This is part of a series of bloody matches to the death. Show support for your favorite game so it will do better in the fight. You can support it by writing why you think its the better game and more importantly by betting (i.e. voting for) it. Please make it clear for when I check the bets later. You have until Friday when I tally the bets and declare the winner. I will reserve my bet for any tie-breakers.
Although you should be familiar with both games, there is no rule that says you have to have played both of them. The only rule in Trashdome is this;
This is part of a series of bloody matches to the death. Show support for your favorite game so it will do better in the fight. You can support it by writing why you think its the better game and more importantly by betting on it. End your first post in this thread with the title of the game you're placing a bet on (i.e. voting for) so its clear to me when reading it later. You have until Friday when I tally the bets and declare the winner. Counting expansions or not is entirely up to you just as playing with them or not is. I will reserve my bet for any tie-breakers.
Although you should be familiar with both games, there is no rule that says you have to have played both of them. The only rule in Trashdome is this;
KINGS AND THINGS is one of the few still-talked-about AT games I've never played. I've never even physically seen a copy of it. I guess I could if I dug around in Branham's stacks enough, but somehow I've never laid eyes on it.
So I'm voting VIKTORY II. The good news though is that I love VIKTORY II and it's worthy vote.
VIKTORY II kind of looks stupid at first. But in play, it's quick, exciting, and has a lot of surprising depth. The systems are smart and simple, and it feels strangely fresh and original. Peter Morrison designed the game based almost completely on his experiences with RISK and AXIS AND ALLIES so it doesn't have that feeling of bolted-on Euro elements but it also doesn't feel like another routine DoaM. Instead, he came up with his own stuff. The way support and army size is tied to your actual holdings, and what units you produce is keyed to the terrain you control, is brilliant.
It's smart stuff and it plays well with a big bloodthirsty group. I still want to upgrade my set to play eight players.
Viktory II looks very much like a DoaM game strapped to Magic: the Gathering, bolted to Settlers of Cataan, and then stripped of extraneous theme back to a basic DoaM game.
I'm completely unfamiliar with Kings & Things, despite being a big fan of Tom Wham games. Since I enjoy all of his other games to some degree, I assume that I would also enjoy Kings & Things.
I've never played Viktory II, but I don't need to because anything going up against Kings 'n Things is going to lose!
KnT was based on the King of the Tabletop game in and old Dragon mag, so if you want to try it you can pick up a PnP version of KotT for free in the BGG files section of that game. KnT added terrain hexes to make an actual map, whereas in Tabletop each player had their own section of lands.
Looking forward to trying Viktory some day, but even though it may be a great game it can't compare to K&T. K&T had a modular map and unit/terrain support rules 23 years ago, but that's not what puts it over the top. A game with Dave Trampier counter art wins against any game that doesn't have Dave Trampier counter art EVERY TIME.
Haven't had a chance to play Viktory II yet but would love to give it a whirl some day.
Played the West End Games edition of Kings & Things, back in the 80's, and had a good time. Drug on in the end game some but still a good time. And come on, killer penguins!
I haven't actually played K&T yet, my dad has it, but whenever I suggest we play it, I get the usual haven't-played-it-in-years-can't-remember-the-rules jive.
I haven't played VIKTORY II either, and even though I'd like to, I'm getting pretty burned out on the whole Risk-but-slightly-better thing.
I have, on the other hand, played the original King of the Tabletop, on which K&T is based. It's a Tom Wham game from top to bottom, which means you'll probably either love it or hate it. It also means I fucking love the living shit out of it.
Viktory II is one of my favourite games. I haven't played the other one, so I'll just say a few words about Viktory II for those of you who are thinking of playing it at some point.
-The game mixes Napoleonic "combined arms" (in which your attack strength is determined by the diversity of your forces rather than their sheer number) with a rule that ties different types of forces to different types of terrain. The result of this is first that there is a straight forward impetus to explore the map and start settlements on different kinds of terrain. Second, there are awesome swings in the game because taking someone's city wins you those forces and your opponent loses them. Those kind of swings are awesome in a multiplayer context where diplomacy and alliances come into play.
-Morrison came out with "expansion 2.0 rules", and in my view they are a must. They change a few things from the original base game. They slightly strengthen the defensive position, which I find adds more tension and rewards more careful play. There are rules for pillaging that give cavalry a really cool role in the game. There is also the optional rule (which I always play with) which suggests that when you reveal hexes in exploration, you draw these from a face-down pile or draw-bag and arrange them in whatever way you like. This allows you to slightly customize the terrain as you discover it, which adds a fun strategy phase in the early game.
-The tactics in games of Viktory II are really fun. THey are complex enough to provide surprises and reward skill, but accessible enough to limit downtime. The combat dice and odds are very quick to calculate. There is a great balance of random and skill.
-Games with first time players have been clocking in at about 4-5 hours. Second games have come down to 3-4 hours.
-The game scales extremely well, but I think it plays best with 5 because the alliances that arise are more dynamic.
Vote: Viktory II
Last edit: 30 Nov 2009 21:27 by Hatchling. Reason: cavalry, pas cavalier
Unbelievable. There's finally a Trashdome where I've played both games and it's one where one of the games is better than 2 decades old and the other is basically a self-published small press thing.
Wham is one of the greats and a new version of K&T will be most welcome (and, though I appreciated Trampier's art back in the early 80s, I'm happy to see it updated). However, Viktory II is great fun.
K&T gets the nostalgia vote, but the Trashdome "viktor" is, without doubt:
I've never even heard of KINGS & THINGS, so strike one there. I've owned and played VIKTORY II and that game is a ton of fun. The other commentators are correct--it looks like it's going to suck. But it's actually amazingly fun and almost surprisingly deep. For me, there's no depth in RISK--it's a very mechanical exercise and in my experience every game boils down to just a coupe of fights. VIKTORY II can go all over the place without being totally random. You get victimized by the rolls and you get victimized by the terrain (FUCKING A), but you can almost always work it out and have a chance. KINGS & THINGS looks like WIZ-WAR on a hex map.
It was a small, but close battle between these two games. Ultimately Kings & Things beat VII by a narrow margin. However I've received a Cease & Desist letter from Games Workshop so I must delete it from Trashdome and give the win to Viktory II.
Kings & Things = 6
Shellhead
NeonPeon
Almalik
Jason Lutes
Brewmeister
mjl1783
Viktory II = 5
Michael Barnes
Hatchling
Dogmatix
jeb
Notahandle
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