Trashdome - Middle Earth Quest VS Lord Of The Ring

I hate playing LotR with most groups, but I kept it so I can play with my daughter when she gets older.

I know absolutely nothing about MEQ, not being the type to follow new releases let alone sample them. Yet the word "Quest" automatically intrigues me.

I would never trade my copy of LotR blindly for MEQ, but in the logicless zone of Trashdome...

Vote: MEQ

Middle Earth Quest.

Why am I the only person who seems to be able to spot that LotR is just another empty, soulless, mechanical spreadsheet exercise in tedium. Where is all this theme? WHERE? Did I forget to look under the box insert or something? Is there a fat packet of freeze-dried theme in there you can sprinkle over your game which will magically transform a bunch of icons into the epic scope of Lord of the Rings? Get a fucking grip, people.

(BTW, Knizia's best design, by a country mile, is Battle Line)

MattDP wrote:

Middle Earth Quest.

Why am I the only person who seems to be able to spot that LotR is just another empty, soulless, mechanical spreadsheet exercise in tedium. Where is all this theme? WHERE? Did I forget to look under the box insert or something? Is there a fat packet of freeze-dried theme in there you can sprinkle over your game which will magically transform a bunch of icons into the epic scope of Lord of the Rings? Get a fucking grip, people.

(BTW, Knizia's best design, by a country mile, is Battle Line)

Yes sir Mr Imperial-lover

... and now for a game of Power Grid - who's up ?

MattDP wrote:

Why am I the only person who seems to be able to spot that LotR is just another empty, soulless, mechanical spreadsheet exercise in tedium. Where is all this theme? WHERE?

And I think it's Knizia's best example of theme. Funny thing, those opinions, huh?

He pulled it off somehow: he got all of the high points from the novels in there (and he had to, or else the LotR crowd would have come pouring forth from their basements with tar and feathers), came up with a system to keep most of them happening in the right order (see previous parentheses), and wrapped it all up in a solid package of mechanics that pretty much forces you to move forward or die. Granted, the design does not allow for any "exploration" of Middle-Earth, but it was never meant to. And to the credit of everyone involved, it was never advertised that way. Anyone who is paying attention knows what they are getting with this system: an attempt at an A-to-B reconstruction of the novels in game form.

That said, I'm not fooling myself: I see the Knizia under the hood (I saw it, in fact, long before I knew or cared about "Kniza" or "Boardgame Geek" or our collective obsession with making sure everything has a label). Boiled down to the essentials, there's pretty much four things you need to do every turn and time enough to do maybe two or three of them. If that's not classic Knizia, then I'm not sure what is. The guy is the galactic master of the "scarce resources" mechanic.

But it works for me — in fact, it works quite well. I like how the tiles are a simple system to drive the game forward while still trying to evoke actions from the novels. I like that in some situations, it's best to just cover distance, while in others, it's best to do some fighting or to rely on friends and newly-met companions. All of that very much reminds me of the novels, and it did so from the first time I played. From my very first play, every group I've played with has alternated spending time actually playing the game with short interludes of "Hey, that really reminds me in the books when X went to Y to talk to Z. You guys remember that?" You ask "where is the theme?" and I have to laugh. My response is "open your eyes."

In terms of this Trashdome — he said, circling back to the subject of the thread — there's definitely a "soulless, mechanic spreadsheet" involved. The problem is, you've picked the wrong game. The glorious mess that is MEQ, with its rigid 200-step sequence of play, is the culprit you're looking for. Just because the MEQ box contains 10,000 pretty cards doesn't mean the game has any soul.

Wow! Middle Earth Quest must be really bad if people are prefering Lord of the Rings to it...

TheDukester wrote:The glorious mess that is MEQ, with its rigid 200-step sequence of play, is the culprit you're looking for. Just because the MEQ box contains 10,000 pretty cards doesn't mean the game has any soul.

During hero turns, there are four steps.
During sauron's turn, there are six steps.

Four steps per player is too much? That 200 step line is a huge exaggeration.

caadamec wrote:

Wow! Middle Earth Quest must be really bad if people are prefering Lord of the Rings to it...

I think you mean MEQ must be really quite good if some people are actually picking it over LotR.

Mr MOTO wrote:

That 200 step line is a huge exaggeration.

Yeah, it was sort of meant to be.

Southernman wrote:

Yes sir Mr Imperial-lover

... and now for a game of Power Grid - who's up ?

Have you ever actually played Imperial? If you have you'll note that it includes:

* Enough thematic attention to warrant a historical information booklet in the game
* Bags of player interaction
* Fantastically deep strategy

All of which are entirely absent from LotR.

Power Grid would be a great game if it wasn't so transparently mathematical so it's a crying shame that it is so transparently mathematical. But I can see why people like it. And it's certainly a lot better than L of the fucking R.

TheDukester wrote:

And I think it's Knizia's best example of theme. Funny thing, those opinions, huh?

Not really. I'm right and you're not. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

TheDukester wrote:

I like that in some situations, it's best to just cover distance, while in others, it's best to do some fighting or to rely on friends and newly-met companions. All of that very much reminds me of the novels, and it did so from the first time I played.

Now, see this is the interesting thing. I'd agree with that their paragraph if, at any time, the game really felt like it was offering choices between travelling, fighting or making friends. But what it actually offers you is a choice between some cardboard tiles or some cardboard tiles with different icons on them. Mechanically fighting is identical to socializing. Some thematic depth huh?

You've heard the story of my first time at LotR before, I'm sure? We beat it. And the second time. And the third time we were all so bored with it we started a competition to be the ring bearer, and lost. But there was some competition in it, at least, so it was marginally more entertaining. And we never played it again. I gave it to one of my friends who has three kids and he's never played it, and they've never expressed any interest in playing it and my partner, who encouraged me to buy it in the first place has never expressed any desire to get it back and play it again either. That many people can't be wrong.

Vote: LORD OF THE RINGS

I'm enjoying Middle-Earth Quest so far, but Lord of the Rings is the king of the coop games for me, even above Arkham Horror and Space Alert. The tension, difficulty, and stress level are incredible. Anyone who says it's too easy needs to stop playing with Sauron on 12 or 15, or needs to get an expansion. Honestly, I thought the game was too easy too, before I started Sauron on 10. Not only did it make it harder, but it completely changed the game. It transformed from a game I didn't like to one of my favorite games. The decisions all became much more interesting and crucial, and real sacrifice was now necessary. Try it.

TheDukester wrote:

Mr MOTO wrote:

That 200 step line is a huge exaggeration.

Yeah, it was sort of meant to be.

Let me rephrase... a bullshit exaggeration. What point are you trying to prove by making it? Anything over 3 steps per player is too much for humans to comprehend? I'll just chalk it up to a failed attempt at humor.

Our gaming group picked the game right up from one persons reading of the rules and the rest of us quickly skimming the rules and starting up play. I'm failing to see the complexities that exist in the game.

As to the 2000 cards comment, which isn't far from the truth in comparison, I am getting a bit annoyed at the mandate that FF appears to have on its designers to include insane amounts of cards in their non Silver Line games when some other mechanism could work nearly as well if not better. Cards are not a panacea and dice are not a disease.

MattDP wrote:

I'd agree with that their paragraph if, at any time, the game really felt like it was offering choices between travelling, fighting or making friends. But what it actually offers you is a choice between some cardboard tiles or some cardboard tiles with different icons on them. Mechanically fighting is identical to socializing. Some thematic depth huh?

Oh, I get it! We're talking about that kind of theme! The one where playing a game — any game — is somehow supposed to be exactly like real life. Silly me!

And, of course all of the pretty cards and counters in MEQ are infinitely preferable to the tiles in LotR. I see that now. Everyone knows that pretty cards and counters are much more thematic than mere tiles.

Thanks for setting me straight. I feel much more like a real gamer now.

Mr MOTO wrote:

I'll just chalk it up to a failed attempt at humor.

Which is clearly a two-way street.

TheDukester wrote:

Mr MOTO wrote:

I'll just chalk it up to a failed attempt at humor.

Which is clearly a two-way street.

More of a roundabout, methinks, but point taken.

Vote: LotR

Haven't played MEQ enough to make a final call, but the Knizia game achieves something singular and extraordinary.