Trashdome - Hammer Of The Scots VS Hannibal RvC

I have a known bias against block games, so take that into account with my vote. That said, I think the Fog of War element in HotS is kind of pointless aside from the subgame of Where's Waldo Wallace you end up playing. The unit density just isn't high enough to prevent fairly easy board memorization as far as I was concerned.

Now, to bash Hannibal for the moment, I'm not a huge fan of the whole Combat: Go Fish element either. I'm not as ruthlessly anti-battle card as, say, GarySax, but, well, it just ain't my favorite mechanic for combat resolution. (And to see Compass Games' Spartacus bring it back was a surprise to say the least.)

However, Hannibal just offers more engaging play as a strategy game, even if the gameplay seems to show its age a bit compared to its younger siblings in the genre.

Vote: Hannibal RvC

[And, side note: Dr. Mabuse--you still up for some Richard III? Didn't mean to blow you off, but I just got way sidetracked by work...]

I own and like both games. Dogmatix is right about the fog of war aspect in Hammer--there just aren't enough blocks to bluff with, so it's usually a snap to tell which ones are where (after initially seeing them in a combat). The rules are mostly idiot-proof, but got a recent revision with some needed small clarifications. I still don't know why Columbia insists on shoehorning everything into an 8 page format.

Hannibal is really obnoxious to teach to a new player (I've done it 3 or 4 times). There are so many procedures that you really need to know before you start, even if you don't end up using them all in an actual game. Interception, avoid battle (penalty if you fail!), withdrawal, overrun, elephant charges, retreat (very punitive), naval movement for Carthage with like a dozen modifiers to tote up, don't forget to remove PCs after you lose a battle, count up provinces at the end of the turn on a board that makes no distinction between the ones you're supposed to count and the ones you aren't...I could go on.

Vote: Hammer of the Scots

Haniibal has a neat game system but the map seems to me to narrow the choices on what to do to maybe two. So I've played it twice and really have no desire to play any more although I would like to try other games using the same game system.

Hammer has a whole bunch of things you can try and I haven't tried them all yet. And it's fun.

Vote: Hammer of the Scots

I'm in Dogmatics camp on not being a fan of fog of war from block games. I usually just ignore the whole try to remember where the blocks are (I hope I'm not given Dr. Mabuse any ideas how to beat me). It's easier just to assume that each block is at about a B 2.5 strength. My short term memory is usually shot by beer and bourbon by turn 2 anyway. That said I still think Hammer is a lot of fun but Hannibal is still better.

KingPut wrote:

I'm in Dogmatics camp on not being a fan of fog of war from block games. I usually just ignore the whole try to remember where the blocks are (I hope I'm not given Dr. Mabuse any ideas how to beat me). It's easier just to assume that each block is at about a B 2.5 strength. My short term memory is usually shot by beer and bourbon by turn 2 anyway. That said I still think Hammer is a lot of fun but Hannibal is still better.

What aren't you a fan of? I think they provide fog of war just fine. True it's a bit easier with Hammer, but try Crusader. You don't have the reset every year, and there are lots of blocks on both sides that are around similar strength. With Saracens harrying and regrouping, it can be easy to lose track of what went where. I don't find Crusader to be the 'waldo' search that Hammer is being accused of.

On a side note, I think 'Hammer of the Scots' is the best name of any boardgame on the market.

While out running, I was thinking about this 'waldo' term that has been used by Hannibal supporters. You know, I'm not sure it's a bad thing. Seems to me, from what I know of the war, that this is exactly how King Edward would see it. "Where is Wallace rebel rousing now?" Seems to me this aligns with the theme, thus in Hammer's favor.

Again, the way the rules are light, yet provide two very different play experiences speaks volumes to the game's design. For the English player, when will Edward stop dicking around in France and come put this little rebellion down? For the Scottish player, hit and run tactics while recruiting the clans, with support of the local churches. And dammit what's a fella gotta do to get a little French or Norse help?

I'm not much of a salesman, but I can't let Hammer go down to Hannibal, some other games maybe, but not Hannibal. There haven't been many votes yet, so let's see if I can sway a few votes from those that haven't played either or are still on the fence.

Let's compare, starting with the most superficial categories...

Title
When you walk in to a room and ask "Who wants to play Hannibal?", it sounds like you're taking auditions for the local theater. Weak.

When someone walks into the room and says "Who wants to play Hammer of the Motherfucking Scots?", you know some violence is about to ensue. And if you have any Scottish ancestry, you were just personally insulted. You've _got_ to get in on that action.
Winner: Hammer of the Scots

Cover
Not only does Hannibal have some vanity issue going on mugging up the cover, but it's a bit too close to some 'euros' for me.





Show-boats...

Now, take a look at Hammer of the Scots. These fellas don't have time for glamour shots, they've got an axe to bury. This cover screams wargame and the struggle of a people.


Winner: Hammer of the Scots easily

Designers
Mark Simonitch is a fine designer on all accounts and I've had some fun with Successors in the past.
However, Jerry Taylor doesn't just muck about in the world of games. Like his politics or not, he actually mixes it up in the real world _and_ makes kick-ass boardgames on the side.
Winner: Hammer of the Scots

Theme
The struggle between Hannibal and the Roman Republic...hmmm that's pretty remote for me.
The Scots fighting for independence from English tyranny? My Yankee kin, we know this struggle all to well. How can you not side with our Scottish brothers?
Winner: Hammer of the Scots

Legacy
Hannibal is just riding the coattails of We the People. Hammer changed the course of an entire company and spawned it's own family.
Winner: Hammer of the Scots

...And Finally
What game is the favorite of the most entertaining podcast about wargames?
Winner: Hammer of the Scots


Hammer is the clear winner for anyone that considers themselves a F:ATtie, but if you want to vote Hannibal based on 'strategic' vs 'tactical' preference, the level of event variety, or some other boring ass mental exercise, punt that shit over to BGG and discuss it with cheese and wine while smoking clove cigarettes with your thespian and 'euro' friends

Jack Hooligan, that was one of the best write ups in Trashdome in long, long time. Maybe the write up since the Runebound debates. Maybe, we have to have more war games in trashdome.

Box cover. Your comparison of the Caylus to Hannibal is weak at best. Yes, both boxes have some guy looking out into space but Kurt Miller art work is the best of in the business. Look at the background and you see the fraking elephants crossing the Alps. Maybe, it's because I'm 1/2 Italian but from the time I was 5 years old I heard stories about Hannibal crossing the Alps with his elephants. The box art on Hammer is cool because it's in the heart of battle but cover looks washed out and old. Result = Tie

The board design. I'm not a big fan of the puzzle design in Hannibal but it still looks greats. Again, Kurt Miller is the best in the business for graphic game design. I think even I can draw up the board in Hammer. - Winner Hannibal

Cards. Uno has better cards than Hammer. The original Hannibal had pretty crappy cards but Valley games did a very nice job with cards. - Winner Hannibal

Battles. I like both battle systems. I like the A, B, C. Reinforcements order of battle in Hammer. I like being able to retreat rather than attack back. However, I also like the battle cards of Hannibal. This is a game with in a game. When your in a battle with Scipio vs. Hannibal and you each have 15 battle cards and you know the whole game could come down to that one battle there is nothing like it. Other times you can be dealt a crappy hand and you have to decide to bluff your way through it or will you try to retreat to fight an other day. - Tie both games have great battle systems.

Components. Blocks are nice but Hannibal has very good components. - Winner Hammer

Vassal / email mode - Hannibal is a great game by email - Vassal. The pacing work really well. Hammer is ok Vassal but I think the game will go twice as long. It took me Dr. Mabose and me and Dogmatic about 6 weeks to finish Hannibal but I think it will take twice that long to finish Hammer. Winner = Hannibal

Overall game play and development - As I mentioned a couple of days ago, I think Hammer is a more tactical game. I think Jack is correct to say that the Scots have to use hit and run tactics and slowly convert nobles vs. the English who have to hold on nobles and slowly gain ground on the Scots. My one issue with Hammer is that game turn 3 isn't very different than game turn 7.

A game of Hannibal can go through many more changes. Early in the game, Hannibal crosses the Alps and Rome has crappy generals so they have to play defensive. If they hold on they may be able to count attack and throw Hannibal out of Italy. They then have to decide if they can attack Spain or Africa. Meanwhile, Carthage may send Mago over to Sardinia or Sicily to start trouble. Eventually, Scipio A. come in the game for Rome so you have decide whether to risk him to attack Africa or Spain or whether he should stay to defend Italy. Winner = Hannibal

I'd have to say if you're a Ameritrasher who want to play a war game than you should try Hammer of the Scots. But if you're a war game who also like Ameritrash than I think Hannibal is a better game.

Well said, Kingput. I have nothing more to add except...

Vote: Hannibal

KingPut, you seem like you could be swayed, so I'm going to work over your points:

Box Cover - I was trying to get out the vote with that one, but I'll check your Tie.

Map - Hammer has a new edition. Though Hannibal's is fine, the one for Hammer is suitable for framing. I've seen this done with the best wargame maps where you simply pull them off the wall and it's already under plexi. The new Hammer map could be hung in a study with no one being the wiser. Hannibal's still looks like a game. New Winner Hammer

Cards - There are several awesome, free cards you could download from BGG. They look better than Hannibal's, _but_ you have to do a bit of work yourself. New Result Tie

Battles - Check. Tie

Components - It sounded like you meant to raise the hand of Hannibal, but you said Hammer, so let's go with that. Winner Hammer

Vassel/email - may be won by Hannibal, but you can play Hammer live on F2F. I've done this several times and it worked like a charm within a normal game's timeframe. Real time > email. New Winner Hammer

Overall gameplay - Considering repeat attendees, look at the WBC winners over the past several years for these games.

Hammer has been dominated by one guy. This tells me the game is very balanced and it's the quality of the player that is rising above. This is as it should be.

Hannibal has a multitude of players winning, which tells me there are more swings of chance. New Winner Hammer

So, Kingput, looks like Hammer actually comes out ahead in the majority of your categories as well. Say it with me:

FREEEEEEDDDDDOOOOOMMMMM!!!

Hannibal no question. There are better block games than HoTS. In Fact of the Jerry Taylor games its my least favorite. Crusader, and Liberty are better and my guess is that Richard III is as well.

I also find that Hammer can be over without the game ending. It takes a long time to play that thing out and if a player doesn't know when he is beaten it will run like 3 hours to finish something that is obvious.

From a production standpoint I think Both the old and certainly the new versions of Hannibal blow Hots out of the water (I seem to recall having to apply a sticker to my map to make it right) And while I like the look of any block game when set up I think the new Hannibal is over the top pretty. (Even without the plastics)

Vote:Hannibal

-M

what's with the yankees always sympathising with and talking about how they get the scottish and irish situations / struggles? damn yankees.

i've never played hammer of the scots, but if it allows the english to crush the scots into the ground, and make them a nation of eternally bitter alcoholics who die at a young age of a bad diet induced heart attack, then it must be pretty good.

hannibal is the weakest card driven game i have played, it's ok, but nowt special.

hammer of the scots by default then.

There are better block games than HotS, but Hannibal is one of the top picks for card driven warfare.

Hannibal

Hammer Of The Scots = 7
Mr Skeletor
Death and Taxis
Jack Hooligan
dysjunct
JoelCFC25
quozl
moss_icon

Hannibal: Rome vs Carthage = 11
Space Ghost
dave
Dr_Mabuse
KingPut
lj1983
dragonstout
hacksword
Dogmatix
grimnir
Malloc
MrZir

Well fought Jack Hooligan. Maybe next time.

Thanks!

Must not be as many folks trying wargames here as I thought. Attendance to this Dome was pretty low.