Re: What BOARD GAME(s) have you been playing?

I'm less in favor of redefining something than I am broadening the definition. I largely agree with what Barnes is saying, but I'm not really on the same page when we're trying to change terminology. That's almost always a losing battle, especially in a field where there really isn't anyone who talks about games professionally.

But I'm definitely really interested in expanding what we mean when we talk about theme, and I think that's where this whole conversation has merit. It absolutely extends further than artwork and flavor text, but that doesn't mean that theme cannot be expressed that way too. Is Lost Cities a pretty abstract game? Of course it is. Do the mechanics of risk and at least work with a game that is about funding expeditions to ancient finds? I think so, even if it doesn't work on an immersive level.

Maybe immersion is more what we're really talking about here. How well does a game immerse you in what's going on? A theme can still work without doing that, but it might not grab at the emotions in the same way.

Yeah, I'm not necessarily getting behind this change in terminology but I completely understand what he's talking about. It's why Twilight struggle is the most immersive (I'll use San's term) game of all time---it has excellent flavor text, a realized setting, etc but then mechanics and play also completely reinforce everything about the setting as well (brinksmanship, paranoia, etc).

Gary Sax wrote: Yeah, I'm not necessarily getting behind this change in terminology

It's been floating around for the past three years here, and I've been waiting for it to sort itself out. The fact that it hasn't (appears to be getting more confused, not less) leads me to think that we're not onto anything yet.

Fifty says "dripping" goes the distance and "theme" doesn't. Gamers love trite epithets.

S.

Yeah, I've been thinking about the evolution of the theme debate:

AT vs Euro
German vs Euro
Pasted On vs Immersive
Executive vs Conceptual
Rules First vs Theme First

VonTush wrote: Yeah, I've been thinking about the evolution of the theme debate:

AT vs Euro
German vs Euro
Pasted On vs Immersive
Executive vs Conceptual
Rules First vs Theme First

Don't forget Fun First, the term that any reviewer can use to push a game that is mechanically shitty but is a blast to play.

Well, I think it's important for ideas and discourse to evolve over time...but I'm not ever going to change anyone's definition of "theme", and I still talk about it the way more or less everyone else does myself.

Twilight Struggle is one of those games that is a total package in terms of theme. It has all of the superficial stuff, but it has that underlayment of actual THEME in there. The domino effect mechanic in particular.

Re: Pete's comments about T&E- T&E is HUGELY thematic, it's just not described in pictures and flavor text. It's more THEMATIC (using that more literary definition) than anything Twilight Imperium or Arkham Horror could ever hope to accomplish with piles and piles and piles of pictures, flavor text, processes and mechanics. It's thematic with minimal effort on the part of the game to convince you that it's "dripping with theme".

To say that it's just "about" tile placement or whatever is quite frankly asinine. To suggest that there is no theme is ignorant. You know what games have no theme? Heroscape and pretty much any miniatures game. Unless the theme is "dudes fighting". Which is absolutely fine, that's a fun subject. But it's not a theme in this more literary sense.

Let's look at some of the very thematic material here:

- T&E is about the four principle elements that comprise successful civilizations- government, religion, resources and trade. A civilization is only as successful as its weakest element.

- As civilizations develop these things, they grow and expand, increasing geographic territory which eventually leads to conflict with neighboring civilizations. This does not necessarily mean battle- it could mean competition in the marketplace or exchange of religious ideas.

- Conflicts emerging from outside of the civilization must be won by supplying resources of the corresponding element, whereas internal conflicts (changes in leaders) must be won by the religious instituition, representing ideological support for changes in leadership.

- When a civilization is able to consolidate the strength of an element, it is able to produce a monument/wonder that continues to increase the value of a civilization over time.

This is all deeply THEMATIC stuff, things that the game is ABOUT. And it's a lot more thematic than flipping a card that shows a monster on it and rolling dice at it.

Really great discussion. I started a new thread so we can keep it going without taking over the games played thread (which usually means the discussion will stop).

Gregarius wrote: Really great discussion. I started a new thread so we can keep it going without taking over the games played thread (which usually means the discussion will stop).

What this site really needs is a moderator willing to move the posts for these types of offshoot discussions into their own threads.

Michael Barnes wrote: Start talking about how most FFG games were never Ameritrash to begin with

A few months ago, back in 2013, I almost started up a thread about that very topic, but didn't want to spend the energy in the following fight.

It's so subjective anyway, but for me...no, the majority of FFG's titles are not Ameritrash. Too polished, too many subsystems/mechanics, too cluttered graphic design, etc.

Still don't want the fight, but basically I realized a while ago that likely the main reason I've moved into wargames over the past decade is because that's where I've found the spirit of Ameritrash to currently reside. It makes sense, since AT sprung out of wargaming.

FFG's Diceless resolutions, multiple (unnecessary) mechanics, and boxes choked with (unnecessary) tokens drowned out the AT feel of games with themes settings that _should_ be AT.

The only titles from FFG I own are Talisman 4th, LotR:Confrontation, Beowulf:The Legend, Citadels, Condotierre, Kingdoms, and Colossal Arena. 6 out of 7 would be considered euros (and Talisman isn't an original FFG design).

I have no interest in the rest of FFGs offerings, and if _I_ have no interest...it's not Ameritrash! ha, ha!

I played History of the World twice in the past 9 days (two consecutive rainy Saturdays). It was fun. A local guy was selling A Brief History of the World for $15 and I bought it based on my two plays of History of the World. I only played a quick 2P learning game of Brief History of the World but Brief History is a little bit different, and it'll take a couple more plays before I can make a fair comparison. First glance indicates Brief History has some cool rule changes and might just be a little bit less clunky.

Both games are thematic in that there's the rise and fall of civilizations, fun events, and lots of conflict. But I cut my beard pretty short yesterday so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

Brief History is WAY better and more playable than not brief HOTW. The IOS app is really good too.

Dang, $15 is a good price for that. OOP and difficult to get a hold of these days.

Played a couple of games of Heroscape last night. We played a castle assault scenario. Josh was in the role of attacker first and planned to bring up his giant death robot but unfortunately for him my Roman Archers popped out from behind the crenellations on the high wall and loosed a hail of arrows which found an exposed circuit and took the Deathwalker out.

The archers thus exposed paid a price as Josh's fire breathing dragon immolated them like so many matchsticks.

There is only one way to fight a dragon and that is with another dragon. My green dragon engaged his red in a draconian slap fight to the death. Green won and then made mince meat out of the rest of Josh's forces.

In the second match, I was the attacker and while my giant baby head guy beat on the castle gates, my flying bone dragon made it to the top of the wall. Unfortunately, the 86th Airborne dropped behind my lines and snuffed my winged demon. Bone Dragon was sniped to death by the Omicrons and Giant Baby Head just didn't have the juice to bust down that wall.

It's damn tough to take that castle.

Then we played a game of Marvel Dice Masters. My third time playing and I like it better each time. Avengers assembled all over the corpses of the X-men (and spiderman and Mr. Fantastic). That is to say I won but it was close. I had 2 hit points left.

Played The New Era last night with Winter and the new expansion, Ruins. Ruins has some nice cards, and we made pretty good use of them. I played as Texas, a faction I've never really gotten to work, and found a negotiation engine pretty quickly. In fact, when I drew the True Patriots, which allow me to incorporate my negotiated locations, I cackled just a little too much and they got blown up after only doing their thing once. Unfortunately one other guy had a hell of a turn 5 and 6 and overtook me, winning with 60 points to my 58 (and 56 for the third place guy). I love that game.

We had quite a game night this last week-end. It all started with the Sid Sackson classic (and our game groups newest staple) I'm the Boss. It was a vicious game and enemies were made quickly. First round in fact. The group was at each others throats by mid game.

I lost, badly, last place in fact.

Then to lighten things up we played Cutthroat Caverns... which made us even more unruly and angry at one another. One of the players seemed dedicated to ensuring all of our deaths and thinking that this was funny somehow... "that's how it's fun to me." - asshole! It wasn't fun for me!! We died during the 7th encounter, three of us turned into Vampires killing the other two. I was one of the Vampires and not only that, upon ending the game I discovered that I was also going to turn into a Wearboar at games end. Fucking cool! We all lost (that's actually fine, but let me be dramatic and pretend it pissed me off) but I was a fucking VAMPIRE WEAR BOAR! Awesome. We all lost, but that somehow feels like a victory to me.

At this point we all hated each other so much it was time to just relax with a gentle game of Survive.. this didn't help matters much. We used the Squid and the Dive Dice so it was as chaotic as can be and very aggressive as early as possible. I lost again here too. My brother won (as well as I'm the Boss) and was clearly on his way to becoming the overall winner of boardgame night.

By this point in the evening we were a little tipsy and just chucked some dice around for the last hour or so before we wandered off to our respective homes. Liars Dice was the game and it was the most relaxed the night ever got. I finally won something too, but by that point it was meaningless, my bro had won the night with his dastardly playing and clever group manipulation tactics... that son of a bitch!!

That sounds like a killer game night.