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08 Nov 2019 10:41 #303896 by themothman421

Gary Sax wrote: ^so very wrong about games was *damning* on this one, similar thoughts. Their discussion about the super uneven tech powers and comparing it to Innovation (which does overpowered cards successfully) was illuminating.


Thanks for the heads up on this. For the life of me, I couldn't remember the name of this podcast! I listened to one of their older episodes about Knizia's Tigris and Euphrates/Yellow and Yangtze- a great listen but I forgot to subscribe. Won't make the same mistake twice!

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08 Nov 2019 11:25 #303899 by Rliyen

jpat wrote:

Rliyen wrote: Played a few learning games of Fast & Fhtagn yesterday. The Boy, when shown the box a couple of weeks ago, showed definite interest (he's into classic cars and whatnot, but also likes HP Lovecraft. When I read the cars' names aloud, my wife lost it. She isn't a racing fan, but will definitely play because of the HP references.


Is this fairly easy to pick up? My wife gave it to me at one point, but it drifted down into the backlog of games, including a backlog of unplayed mythos games.


The rulebook layout is not great, but not FFG terrible. You have 2 play mat setup, indicating the starting line, and it changes every time someone new takes the lead or when the current leader's turn comes up. As the game progresses, the street changes, most times not for the better. The important rules are knowing the sequence of pack order (and who has priority, which is determined by position) and rolling a die to beat a particular target number, which varies based on your location. Advancing when you're behind is easy. But if you're far ahead, it's much more difficult to increase your lead.

The game's also nasty, you can drift into another's lane and either force them onto the sidewalk or slam on their brakes and fall behind you. There's also HP inspired take that cards. Favorite one is changing the direction of civilian vehicles. Cars going with the pack are merely annoying, in the "Get the *@&! out of the way!" variety and they only move when it's the turn of the player in last place. Oncoming traffic is much more dangerous, as the cars move every turn, and if they hit you, you're damaged. And if you're already damaged, you spin out and end up in last place.

You can also earn Style Points (like playing a card that grants you one, or doing something boneheaded like crossing the double yellow lines and going into oncoming traffic). You also have a chance to upgrade your vehicle with up to three mods and one driver, though you have to pull onto the sidewalk and stop to do so, which allows people behind you to advance. Style points can be used for various bonuses, but they are mostly prized for the endgame, when one of the FINISH line playmats come up. There's one round that everyone takes their turn, then people who spend three SPs can take another turn, multiple times if they have enough points to do so.

It took me about three games before I really understood the rules, once that's done the game is easy to understand and explain.

The only thing they should have done for the quickstart handouts was to have the chart with the TNs you need to advance in the pack on another card. You have to keep the rulebook open to that page if you don't have a good grasp on them.
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08 Nov 2019 12:00 #303903 by Jackwraith

Gregarius wrote: I'm an unapologetic Knizia fanboy, but it astounds me that people used to call his games cold and mathy and themeless. Choosing which camel to place and where, as the pool of each color and the spaces on the board rapidly disappear creates more tension, more emotion, more FUN than anything I could possibly do in Tapestry, and I even built a space shuttle and explored new planets. But hey, it's got great bits.


I'm a Knizia fan, too. Modern Art remains one of my favorite games, however many years after its release. But I agree with the mild criticism of his designs, which (in my experience) wasn't so much that they were cold and mathy, but that the themes were essentially irrelevant. T&E has zero- ZERO -to do with ancient Sumeria. It's a tile placement game that could be a tile placement game on Ganymede if priests were ice sample collectors and kings were mission commanders. The theme doesn't matter at all. It's still a design of extraordinary depth and, in direct contrast to Tapestry, enormous interaction between players,

Thanks for the writeup on Tapestry. I was already off of Stonemaier games because of Wingspan (very pretty, but completely unremarkable) and have been unable to get through two different intro videos for Tapestry because of the same feelings that you've described. It doesn't really "do" anything. You're just charting points, irrespective of other players. I play enough games by myself, thanks. I want to play games WITH other people.
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08 Nov 2019 13:29 #303915 by Jackwraith

Gary Sax wrote: ^so very wrong about games was *damning* on this one, similar thoughts. Their discussion about the super uneven tech powers and comparing it to Innovation (which does overpowered cards successfully) was illuminating.


Continuing, I just went and listened to this. I don't listen to many game podcasts because a lot of them are rather turgid. I appreciated that they went into detail on the problems they had with the various mechanics and lack of theme and still kept things moving along. I know you mentioned before that they were dismissive of Gamelyn's TE line. I wonder if their two reactions are based on similar expectations? As in, they were expecting more from the TE game they played and were expecting more from Tapestry, since it's from the same designer as Scythe, which they both like.

Interestingly, one of them mentioned that he liked Scythe, even though the game is "plodding" until you reach a certain level of efficiency development. He mentioned that Tapestry simply continues to "plod" right through the game and never really varies from that; likely not helped by the fact that the game has very little chrome or color (technologies don't have real impact and are mostly just used for the score tracks, etc.) I think it presents an interesting contrast to Knizia games, which can be slow (see: T&E) but are often abstracts with a theme pasted on. Abstracts generally have more depth in gameplay than other designs and I think that's what makes Knizia's designs so good. Even when you're starting out just placing tiles in the midst of an empty board in T&E, you already have a plan in mind that will come to fruition in a couple turns. Tapestry perhaps missed the boat on that depth factor, restricting the chrome to make an efficient design, but leaving out the depth created by simplicity? Dunno.

Their review is a total contrast to everything else I've seen on BGG, where the most prominent reviews simply RAVE about this game and are in utter opposition to everything SVWAG said: how every game is different and even after two dozen plays hasn't exhausted the variety, etc.
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08 Nov 2019 13:34 - 08 Nov 2019 18:20 #303916 by Gary Sax
It's a study in contrasts on that show, but I nevertheless find both voices interesting because I have a good frame of reference for their opinions. Mark Bigney is the Big Opinions guy who likes AT and wargames quite a bit in addition to the euro stuff. I find his preferences are very informative since they are often similar to mine, and he is much better able to articulate his points on the pod than Walker. Walker likes much more traditional euros, in my view, so it isn't surprising that he likes a pretty down the middle modern euro or waro like Scythe---one of his favorite games is that space version of Terra Mystica.
Last edit: 08 Nov 2019 18:20 by Gary Sax.
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08 Nov 2019 15:52 #303937 by Gregarius
After Tapestry last night, we got into a fairly decent discussion about it as well as other modern designs.

I bit my tongue for the most part, saying only that it "wasn't my style of game" instead of how much I hated it. (They already accuse me of hating everything, but when it's this and Wingspan and Gizmos and whatever other flavor of the day, yeah, I pretty much hate everything.)

Anyway, they called me out because I like Scythe. What was the difference? I honestly couldn't say. Maybe the benefits of the dev paths are more straightforward? Maybe it feels like things are actually happening? I think the comment about "plodding" is right: in Scythe it leads to something; in Tapestry that's all there is.

Thanks for the tip about SVWAG. I'll have to check them out.

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08 Nov 2019 15:59 #303938 by cdennett
Fascinating, I've not heard one particularly positive review of Tapestry, mostly middling. I was not aware it was reviewing particularly well, but I guess my review-o-sphere is fairly narrow these days. In addition to SVWAG, Board Game Barrage was not particularly positive, but I guess more so then Mr. Bigney. I want to say I listened to another middling review on another podcast (maybe SU&SD?), and there have been comments in the "Hot Games" thread of BGG.Con saying something to the affect of "instead of playing Tapestry just roll a 20-sided die to determine the winner and move on." But then again, it is leading the "poll" in that category, so I guess the BGG zeitgeist is fully engaged with that one. But there is literally nothing on that list that appeals to me, so meh.

Speaking of BGG.Con, I've lined up a game of War of the Ring followed by a six-player Dune for the first day, so excited.
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08 Nov 2019 16:12 #303941 by mc
Yes I haven't read a single positive thing about Tapestry either. Good to know I've got my filters set right..... I think.... heh.

SVWAG is a good mix and I also appreciate that they keep things moving. Opinion, next! Good stuff, and usually pretty insightful, and enough difference of opinion in there as well - sometimes I agree with one, sometimes the other.

I strongly strongly disagree that T&E is pasted on but at the same time recognise you could make it about those ice priests. Not sure how that's possible (the obvious rejoinder is that I am wrong), but, every action you can take in the game makes sense to me in the context of early civilizations/city states.
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08 Nov 2019 16:25 #303942 by Jackwraith
I get that it's possible to wrap your mind around that possibility. I just think the theme is completely secondary to every other aspect of the game. And, to be fair, I don't have a universal disdain for Knizia's themes. For example, I think Modern Art's theme is utterly integral to the gameplay.
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08 Nov 2019 18:39 #303956 by Gregarius
I haven't actually read any reviews of Tapestry, I just see it talked about and know that it's sought after. That could just be the "cool minis" and newness, and once the (lack of) play becomes better known the hype will evaporate.
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08 Nov 2019 23:06 #303977 by Gary Sax
A non-Scythe Stonemeier special.

Played Era: Medieval Age with my spouse. Enjoyed it, going to start a thread. We'll see on longevity, need to play these fun light euros a good amount to know if it's just system learning fun vs. something being there.
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09 Nov 2019 13:17 #304011 by Michael Barnes
The best was watching on Twitter all of the board game personalities getting excited about Tapestry and then resounding meh from everybody else.

I’m about to declare that I am not playing any more games that have chart-like tracks comprising the majority of the board or games that rely on “special mission” cards in conjunction with point salad schemes to make sure everybody has enough points.

The games I’m playing and enjoying lately have NONE of that- Aeon’s End (19 plays so far), Undaunted, Wildlands, Aristocracy, Dragon Market, Terminator. Fuck all those chart games. It’s become a lazy way t design a game for al of these wannabe Eurogame designers. Kramer, Knizia, and Teuber never did that kind of shit.

Unmatched has turned into one of the best titles of the year...I was kind of shruggy about it at first but man it gets deep when you are playing with experience and experienced players.

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10 Nov 2019 06:23 - 10 Nov 2019 06:26 #304034 by Josh Look
I’m glad you gave it a chance and that you’re enjoying it. It takes a few games to really click and much to the game’s favor, that’s when the scenarios start getting really good as well.

There’s another set coming out and as much as I enjoy the game, man, I don’t think I bring myself to by a second WWII game.

I still think you should check out War Chest. The jury is still out on which I prefer. I love the more pick-up-and-play nature of War Chest but there’s a few mechanics, like how initiative works, in Undaunted that are just SO. FUCKING. GOOD.
Last edit: 10 Nov 2019 06:26 by Josh Look.

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10 Nov 2019 10:17 #304037 by Josh Look
Lots of games played yesterday...

I started off with 2 solo games of Marvel Champions at home, which greatly exceeded my expectations. It’s really, really fun. I definitely prefer it to the gamey, mechanical LOTR game and I prefer it to Arkham if only for the theme and lack of emphasis on commitment. Best superheroes game IMO. Somebody finally managed to tackle alter-egos in a fun and meaningful way.

At Trashfest:
Blitz Bowl Still loving this, can’t get enough of it.
Path of Light and Shadow, seemed to go over well. I’m quite fond of it, very underrated.
The Kaiju Prototype got played twice. I think we finally cracked the multiplayer game, huge victory for Al and I. Everyone seemed to have a great time.
Obscurio Boy oh boy do I love this one. I dig hidden traitor games and I’m a huge Mysterium fan, so this is an A+ for me. Probably my favorite game by this team to date.
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10 Nov 2019 12:05 #304040 by Gary Sax
Besides being ugly as fuck, I hope Marvel champions does really well. The kids/teens of the nation deserve to get a decent fucking game if their relatives randomly get them a superhero game. But that partly depends on the width of distribution.

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