What MOVIE(s) have you been....seeing? watching?

Agreed, The Platform is an amazing demolition of socialism and the "fuck you, got mine" mindset.

jason10mm wrote: Agreed, The Platform is an amazing demolition of socialism and the "fuck you, got mine" mindset.

You're talking about polar opposite concepts there. If the show is as Gregarius describes, said metaphor has nothing to do with "socialism" but is instead a demonstration of your latter idea, as well as so-called "trickle down" economic theories.

Nomadland - There's going to be two kinds of people who see this movie, people who get it and people who don't. I'm in the latter group. It was mildly depressing as I could easily picture myself in that situation someday but mostly I just found it boring. The main character never pulled me into her "story" and she drives all over the country but none of the locations caught my eye.

Jackwraith wrote:

jason10mm wrote: Agreed, The Platform is an amazing demolition of socialism and the "fuck you, got mine" mindset.

You're talking about polar opposite concepts there. If the show is as Gregarius describes, said metaphor has nothing to do with "socialism" but is instead a demonstration of your latter idea, as well as so-called "trickle down" economic theories.

I feel it hits them both at different levels. The macro structure of the film is clearly demonizing socialist policies in action as opposed to how the idealist frames them in theory. However the interpersonal dynamics are an example of greed and immediate self gratification overruling altruism, trust, and hope. When given the chance to help those below, it is rarely taken. But the system itself is designed to encourage this negative behavior and the system is absolute and inexplicable, thus it approaches a natural law rather than an artificial state superimposed against their will. Because the status of the people in the prison will change capriciously and they all have no individual value or merit, I feel this is not any kind of capitalist attack though those conditioned to view virtually everything through that lens will probably think so.

jason10mm wrote: Agreed, The Platform is an amazing demolition of socialism and the "fuck you, got mine" mindset.

Yeah just agreeing with Jackwraith. Seems you are using the word "socialism" in a very different way than I am accustomed to seeing. The word usually involves ideas of cooperation, egalitarianism, mutual aid, collective care for the most vulnerable, and so on. So, basically the opposite of "fuck you, got mine".

Anyway, sounds like an film worth checking out.

There's an old saying:

"Capitalism means 'Anyone can be rich (but only a few people are.)'
Communism means 'No one can be rich (but still a few people are.)'
Socialism means 'No one can be poor.'"

jason10mm wrote: Agreed, The Platform is an amazing demolition of socialism and the "fuck you, got mine" mindset.

How do you define "socialism"?

Of late I get the impression that the definition is whatever the echo chamber of your social media feed tells you it is. Once upon a time we just used to look shit up in the dictionary if we didn't know what a word meant.

I'll just run with the (current) websters definition:

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism
Definition of socialism
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

We'll ignore #3 since I know the word "communism" is just inflammatory.

So in The Platform (and I'll try to stick to generalities and not spoil much) prisoners are "assigned" levels in a vertical structure. They are periodically moved randomly to another level. Once a day a platform full of food descends down, allowing folks at each level a short period to eat. So this replicates a socialist system quite well. The authority (the prison) maintains and distributes resources in an externally equitable system with each prisoner, in theory, getting access to just as much food as they require in an orderly fashion. Those at the bottom would have to endure periods of limited selection but eventually they would move higher and get more choice before moving back down. Each prisoner is equal, they produce no value, work, or endure discrimination of any type other than what is generated by the folks above them and the single cellmate they currently have. However they have no merit either. So the entire ecosystem is in perfect balance (in theory) and is 100% reliant on the single resource bolus that is handed out according to an immutable routine.

Naturally this system is able to be exploited and is, since folks at the top over consume and folks at the bottom suffer. If the positioning were static, or able to be manipulated via innovation, merit, or bribery (and possibly war) then The Platform being a critique of capitalism would hold more water with me. But it is not. The authority is absolute and an individuals place within it is does not allow for accumulation of private wealth or any privilege. The prisoners are 100% reliant on "the system" so in a sense they OWN the system since they have free reign to act within the boundaries it defines.

They COULD distribute food equitably, but chose not to. This is explored extensively within the film. Individual greed supplants societal wellbeing when that societal wellbeing does not allow for individual wealth accumulation to permit altruism and charity. Folks at the top who now have the decision about how much food to eat are quite likely folks who just suffered from starvation a day earlier. They should have compassion and understanding for the top folks who are now at the bottom but they don't. They now have 'power' as it exists within this ecosystem and they are quick to exploit it. I feel this mimics how many disenfranchised groups act when they finally get their bite of the apple and isn't really what capitalism is predicated on (which should be more merit based since value = power in that system).

A film like Snowpiercer is probably a little more of a capitalist critique though it has been a while since I've seen it. From what I recall both that film and The Platform have third act wonkiness that detract from any direct sociopolitical messaging and comparisons but that's probably for the best. These films offer up at multiple levels and that is why they are successful versus a more preachy approach.

I'll throw in my two cents, but it is from a limited perspective: I watched only part of The Platform, as it became so unpleasant that I just peaced out.

This film is basically talking about how power and greed corrupts. The prisoners on the higher levels are the powerful; they deem what gets passed down to those lower than they are, and sometimes are cruel for cruelty's sake. They don't like it when they are the low prisoner, but once they are higher up, they don't act altruistically, they act as greedy as ever.

Sounds like contrived bullshit to me.

So a gross version of Rawl's veil of ignorance but only knowing who you are for a month at a time:

fs.blog/2017/10/veil-ignorance/#:~:text=...lly%20equal%20beings .

jason10mm wrote: So this replicates a socialist system quite well.

That's where you lose me.

Socialism is inherently a class-less structure. Since The Platform posits a very overt class structure it strikes me as the exact opposite of socialism. In fact, it replicates capitalism or monarchy or oligarchy far more obviously.

I think when most people think of socialism now they think of the Nordic model which has proved to be the most successful merging of socialism and capitalism, and generally leads to the happiest citizens.

I wouldn't call the Platform a criticism of socialism. It is a criticism of a society without a safety net for the worst off, and that basically is what is happening now in America. Get sick or lose your job or have an extended period of trouble and you are fucked as society says it is your fault for your situation and up to you to improve it.

Greg Aleknevicus wrote:

jason10mm wrote: So this replicates a socialist system quite well.

That's where you lose me.

Socialism is inherently a class-less structure. Since The Platform posits a very overt class structure it strikes me as the exact opposite of socialism. In fact, it replicates capitalism or monarchy or oligarchy far more obviously.

I would accept that if there were so way to influence your place. But there isn't. The prison is omnipotent. If this was about waiting in a bread line and the ones who got up the earliest were first or the ones that bullied their way in line or slept with a food delivery person you might have a point. But that's not what The Platform is about. Everyone in it is equal and the place in line is completely independent of your worth (since you have none) and randomly changes. But everyone COULD choose to share and stretch the food bolus to all according to need, the ideal of socialism, but human nature being what it is, well.....

The writers being Spanish I doubt the capitalist vs socialist debate we are having here was even an issue, class warfare was probably more their focus and they just replicated the more socialist model they have. The American version of this film would be Escape Plan with Stallone and Schwarzeneggar and we can clearly see the differences Maybe Cube is the Canadian POV