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What MOVIE(s) have you been....seeing? watching?
DarthJoJo wrote: To be honest, Disney films have largely given up on villains since Frozen where those two guys were pretty incidental. Which is pretty surprising considering the success of Cruella and Maleficent and general pushing of the ‘90’s villains.
"The real villain was the mental problems we had along the way..."
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Not Sure wrote:
DarthJoJo wrote: To be honest, Disney films have largely given up on villains since Frozen where those two guys were pretty incidental. Which is pretty surprising considering the success of Cruella and Maleficent and general pushing of the ‘90’s villains.
"The real villain was the mental problems we had along the way..."
Story of my life.
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DarthJoJo wrote: To be honest, Disney films have largely given up on villains since Frozen where those two guys were pretty incidental. Which is pretty surprising considering the success of Cruella and Maleficent and general pushing of the ‘90’s villains.
I've noticed this as well. I think it is a multifactorial issue but I think the crux of it is they wanted to deescalate the conflict and focus more on intra-/inter-personal journeys. Marvel and Star Wars kinda took over the punchy punchy pew-pew conflict driven narratives leaving pixar and disney animation to pursue alternative storylines. Making a good villain is hard and modern Disney is kinda bad at it since they have virtually every villain archtype covered at this point. I'm not sure I would even classify the Cruella prequel(?) as a villain character, and even stuff like Book of Fett can't hold him to more than a slightly grumpy uncle level of meanness to anyone other than absolute slime. The last great one I think they did was Thanos with Purple Guy from JJ before that and Syndrome from The Incredibles before that.
A great villain needs to be a dark reflection of the hero to some extent, and I don't think Disney is interested in making flawed heroes that can be mirrored in that way anymore.
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- Michael Barnes
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But yeah, with Frozen, Encanto, Moana…there is more of a focus on overcoming adversity, social expectations, personal doubt, and coming to terms with life rather than vanquishing a “bad guy” and I think that’s fine, especially as they are moving further away from the traditional fairy tale narratives that were Disney’s stock in trade from Snow White and up. Some of this is also, I think, the influence of Studio Ghibli and others like Hosoda on this generation of animators and writers. Most Ghibli films don’t have a villain, which enables them to explore deeper themes than basic good versus evil tropes. Even Princess Mononoke ends with the nominal villain coming to to an understanding and asking for and receiving forgiveness rather than comeuppance. That’s a more powerful finish than bad guy falling into a pit or being humilated. Witness also Uncle Aaron in Spider-Verse- a defeated bad guy says “I’m sorry I let you down” to the hero. I thought that was just tremendous.
Frozen did have villains but they were almost an afterthought in a film that’s really more about sisterly love and self-actualization than traditional fairy tale subjects. They were also there to contraindicate the usual male influence on these kinds of stories. Prince Hans is a exploitative fraud, but he is still Prince Charming.
All of this for us means that Villainous is running out of bad guys. Lotso is a great choice but there again, he’s a tragic figure (that winds up CRUCIFIED). Syndrome is a good one too and as an indictment of fandom he’s as relevant as ever. But I do love Disney villains and I do feel sort of sad that there likely won’t be another Jafar, Hook, or Maleficient any time soon- especially now that the villains are all being rehabilitated or recontextualized.
Come to think of it I wonder if this shift is also why Descendants was so popular…kids of the villains weren’t really evil, more cartoonishly rebellious and naughty but hardly actually wicked or cruel. I have seen all three films like 80 times, Scarlett loves them. Encanto is her thing now, she dubbed it her favorite movie ever the other day.
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- Erik Twice
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I saw Sleeping Beauty not too long ago and there's barely a villain in it, either. The whole climax takes place in less than five minutes . Malificient barely has more screen time than the kings and the mistrel that steals wine from them. The vast majority of the film is, well, "filler" such as cooking without Magic or singing in the forest. And when I see, say, Tangled, well it's not so different. You have a scene early in the film, then the climax. Perhaps a peek in the middle. But 90% of Tangled is the same kind of filler Sleeping Beauty is.
Even Mulan doesn't have a real villain and neither does Tarzan. Both of those films are also "filler", as is The Aristocats and a bunch of others. It's just hard to notice villains have never been that important because they often took the best scenes. They are almost invariably the only characters with a personality and often showstoppers. C'mon, Gaston is the best character in his film by a mile. Since practically all Disney films are adaptations, it might also be less obvious but I think it has always been there.
I remember John Kricfalusi (Ren and Stimpy) once wrote a detailed post explaining how the prototypical Disney villain was based on a stereotype of flamboyant gay men. Given he's a piece of crap and he said it in a less than polite manner it was hard to take him seriously. And yet, I'm afraid he's right. From the top of my head, Jafar, Cogsworth, Hook, Scar and that burocraft from Mulan are all good examples, being defined by a certain "non-masculinity" which underscores their actions.jason10mm wrote: Making a good villain is hard and modern Disney is kinda bad at it since they have virtually every villain archtype covered at this point.
They are flamboyant (as opposed to stoic), plotting an underhanded (as opposed to direct and bold), foppish and concerned with appeareance (a stereotipically female trait) , somewhat intellectual (as opposed to practical) and so on. They are too gay and French to be good. Kricfalusi said the stereotype must come from melodramas and he's probably right. It also seems to me Sir Guy from The Adventures of Robin Hood as a key influence and, if I remember as well, Basil Rathbone said he played the character as if it was gay to underscore its villainy.
Either way, I hope you enjoyed your trip to Erik Twice's absurdly in-depth analysis of gender stereotypes in Disney cartoons. Just let me know if it makes sense to you or if if you think I'm out of my mind hahaha
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- Michael Barnes
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You can see this for sure in recent villains too- Tamatoa from Moana, Lotso is pink and strawberry scented, Syndrome has a flaming red up do, Dr, Facilier wears a feathers and is shirtless under a purple vest.
With Gaston, he’s portrayed as macho, hypermale, hyper cishet…but still with a long tail, perfect skin, tights, and a servile male companion. And French.
There is definitely room for analysis there and how all of this figures into “camp” and potentially even negative gay stereotypes…the converse to all of this is the camp and flamboyance is also what makes them -likeable- and endearing.
Except Frollo, he’s just a fucking heel.
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Consider Hans Gruber. Sure he killed some folks but I think most folks latched on to his mannerisms and suave demeanor and the eventual descent into desperation as to why he was a great villain. He is also the dark reflection of McClains working class salt of the earthiness.
If folks attribute this stuff to gay people I think it is because they only really see the "performance queer" personas, not what most homosexuals are like in day to day life.
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- Legomancer
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It's okay, not one of his best. Very much what you expect. It's three-and-a-bit stories. Two of them are very light, with pretty thin characters. Only one really has something in it, but even that one is kind of pushed back by an intrusive narrator, keeping you from really connecting with it. After Moonrise Kingdom (itself with some distracting silliness) I had high hopes, but Budapest and this are just kind of there for me.
Oh, one notable thing about French Dispatch! It now ties with Royal Tenenbaums as having the most black main characters, at also just one. Come on, Wes.
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