Front Page

Content

Authors

Game Index

Forums

Site Tools

Submissions

About

KK
Kevin Klemme
March 09, 2020
35147 2
Hot
KK
Kevin Klemme
January 27, 2020
20825 0
Hot
KK
Kevin Klemme
August 12, 2019
7405 0
Hot
O
oliverkinne
December 19, 2023
3967 0
Hot
O
oliverkinne
December 14, 2023
3498 0
Hot

Mycelia Board Game Review

Board Game Reviews
O
oliverkinne
December 12, 2023
2075 0
O
oliverkinne
December 07, 2023
2583 0

River Wild Board Game Review

Board Game Reviews
O
oliverkinne
December 05, 2023
2255 0
O
oliverkinne
November 30, 2023
2496 0
J
Jackwraith
November 29, 2023
3016 0
Hot
O
oliverkinne
November 28, 2023
1973 0
S
Spitfireixa
October 24, 2023
3692 0
Hot
O
oliverkinne
October 17, 2023
2625 0
O
oliverkinne
October 10, 2023
2461 0
O
oliverkinne
October 09, 2023
2289 0
O
oliverkinne
October 06, 2023
2506 0

Outback Crossing Review

Board Game Reviews
×
Bugs: Recent Topics Paging, Uploading Images & Preview (11 Dec 2020)

Recent Topics paging, uploading images and preview bugs require a patch which has not yet been released.

× Use the stickied threads for short updates.

Please consider adding your quick impressions and your rating to the game entry in our Board Game Directory after you post your thoughts so others can find them!

Please start new threads in the appropriate category for mini-session reports, discussions of specific games or other discussion starting posts.

What MOVIE(s) have you been....seeing? watching?

More
06 Jan 2022 13:48 - 06 Jan 2022 13:49 #329446 by Not Sure

DarthJoJo wrote: To be honest, Disney films have largely given up on villains since Frozen where those two guys were pretty incidental. Which is pretty surprising considering the success of Cruella and Maleficent and general pushing of the ‘90’s villains.


"The real villain was the mental problems we had along the way..."
Last edit: 06 Jan 2022 13:49 by Not Sure.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Ancient_of_MuMu, jason10mm

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
06 Jan 2022 14:07 #329452 by dysjunct

Not Sure wrote:

DarthJoJo wrote: To be honest, Disney films have largely given up on villains since Frozen where those two guys were pretty incidental. Which is pretty surprising considering the success of Cruella and Maleficent and general pushing of the ‘90’s villains.


"The real villain was the mental problems we had along the way..."


Story of my life.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Gary Sax, Not Sure

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
06 Jan 2022 17:08 #329480 by jason10mm

DarthJoJo wrote: To be honest, Disney films have largely given up on villains since Frozen where those two guys were pretty incidental. Which is pretty surprising considering the success of Cruella and Maleficent and general pushing of the ‘90’s villains.


I've noticed this as well. I think it is a multifactorial issue but I think the crux of it is they wanted to deescalate the conflict and focus more on intra-/inter-personal journeys. Marvel and Star Wars kinda took over the punchy punchy pew-pew conflict driven narratives leaving pixar and disney animation to pursue alternative storylines. Making a good villain is hard and modern Disney is kinda bad at it since they have virtually every villain archtype covered at this point. I'm not sure I would even classify the Cruella prequel(?) as a villain character, and even stuff like Book of Fett can't hold him to more than a slightly grumpy uncle level of meanness to anyone other than absolute slime. The last great one I think they did was Thanos with Purple Guy from JJ before that and Syndrome from The Incredibles before that.

A great villain needs to be a dark reflection of the hero to some extent, and I don't think Disney is interested in making flawed heroes that can be mirrored in that way anymore.
The following user(s) said Thank You: jeb, Gary Sax, sornars, DarthJoJo

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
06 Jan 2022 17:51 #329482 by Michael Barnes
It’s an interesting shift, I think in part it is cultural and it’s also generational. There’s always been this thing with Disney villains, that they are much like Batman villains in that they are likable and often victims themselves. The ones that are really irredeemably bad like Scar, Cruella, or Evil Queen are still endearing. Mother Gothel is maybe the most out and out -awful- other than Frollo, who is genuinely a vile character without any charm. FUN FACT- IOS just auto corrected Frollo to Felli what does it mean.

But yeah, with Frozen, Encanto, Moana…there is more of a focus on overcoming adversity, social expectations, personal doubt, and coming to terms with life rather than vanquishing a “bad guy” and I think that’s fine, especially as they are moving further away from the traditional fairy tale narratives that were Disney’s stock in trade from Snow White and up. Some of this is also, I think, the influence of Studio Ghibli and others like Hosoda on this generation of animators and writers. Most Ghibli films don’t have a villain, which enables them to explore deeper themes than basic good versus evil tropes. Even Princess Mononoke ends with the nominal villain coming to to an understanding and asking for and receiving forgiveness rather than comeuppance. That’s a more powerful finish than bad guy falling into a pit or being humilated. Witness also Uncle Aaron in Spider-Verse- a defeated bad guy says “I’m sorry I let you down” to the hero. I thought that was just tremendous.

Frozen did have villains but they were almost an afterthought in a film that’s really more about sisterly love and self-actualization than traditional fairy tale subjects. They were also there to contraindicate the usual male influence on these kinds of stories. Prince Hans is a exploitative fraud, but he is still Prince Charming.

All of this for us means that Villainous is running out of bad guys. Lotso is a great choice but there again, he’s a tragic figure (that winds up CRUCIFIED). Syndrome is a good one too and as an indictment of fandom he’s as relevant as ever. But I do love Disney villains and I do feel sort of sad that there likely won’t be another Jafar, Hook, or Maleficient any time soon- especially now that the villains are all being rehabilitated or recontextualized.

Come to think of it I wonder if this shift is also why Descendants was so popular…kids of the villains weren’t really evil, more cartoonishly rebellious and naughty but hardly actually wicked or cruel. I have seen all three films like 80 times, Scarlett loves them. Encanto is her thing now, she dubbed it her favorite movie ever the other day.
The following user(s) said Thank You: lj1983, sornars, DarthJoJo

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
06 Jan 2022 20:08 #329496 by Erik Twice
I don't think I can articulate why, but the removal of villains from Disney films strikes me as inevitable. In fact, I truly wonder if it wasn't part of the formula all along.

I saw Sleeping Beauty not too long ago and there's barely a villain in it, either. The whole climax takes place in less than five minutes . Malificient barely has more screen time than the kings and the mistrel that steals wine from them. The vast majority of the film is, well, "filler" such as cooking without Magic or singing in the forest. And when I see, say, Tangled, well it's not so different. You have a scene early in the film, then the climax. Perhaps a peek in the middle. But 90% of Tangled is the same kind of filler Sleeping Beauty is.

Even Mulan doesn't have a real villain and neither does Tarzan. Both of those films are also "filler", as is The Aristocats and a bunch of others. It's just hard to notice villains have never been that important because they often took the best scenes. They are almost invariably the only characters with a personality and often showstoppers. C'mon, Gaston is the best character in his film by a mile. Since practically all Disney films are adaptations, it might also be less obvious but I think it has always been there.

jason10mm wrote: Making a good villain is hard and modern Disney is kinda bad at it since they have virtually every villain archtype covered at this point.

I remember John Kricfalusi (Ren and Stimpy) once wrote a detailed post explaining how the prototypical Disney villain was based on a stereotype of flamboyant gay men. Given he's a piece of crap and he said it in a less than polite manner it was hard to take him seriously. And yet, I'm afraid he's right. From the top of my head, Jafar, Cogsworth, Hook, Scar and that burocraft from Mulan are all good examples, being defined by a certain "non-masculinity" which underscores their actions.

They are flamboyant (as opposed to stoic), plotting an underhanded (as opposed to direct and bold), foppish and concerned with appeareance (a stereotipically female trait) , somewhat intellectual (as opposed to practical) and so on. They are too gay and French to be good. Kricfalusi said the stereotype must come from melodramas and he's probably right. It also seems to me Sir Guy from The Adventures of Robin Hood as a key influence and, if I remember as well, Basil Rathbone said he played the character as if it was gay to underscore its villainy.

Either way, I hope you enjoyed your trip to Erik Twice's absurdly in-depth analysis of gender stereotypes in Disney cartoons. Just let me know if it makes sense to you or if if you think I'm out of my mind hahaha
The following user(s) said Thank You: Shellhead, jeb, Gary Sax, Not Sure, sornars, Nodens

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
07 Jan 2022 05:53 #329509 by Nodens
If you want another source than Kricfalusi, the same point has been made in the 'imaginary worlds' podcast iirc.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Gary Sax

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
07 Jan 2022 08:13 #329511 by Michael Barnes
I get it but I wonder if there is an assumption that “flamboyance” automatically reads as effeminate, emasculated, or queer. And is that necessarily a source of evil or cartoonish villainy or is that simply an expression of being unbound to societal norms?

You can see this for sure in recent villains too- Tamatoa from Moana, Lotso is pink and strawberry scented, Syndrome has a flaming red up do, Dr, Facilier wears a feathers and is shirtless under a purple vest.

With Gaston, he’s portrayed as macho, hypermale, hyper cishet…but still with a long tail, perfect skin, tights, and a servile male companion. And French.

There is definitely room for analysis there and how all of this figures into “camp” and potentially even negative gay stereotypes…the converse to all of this is the camp and flamboyance is also what makes them -likeable- and endearing.

Except Frollo, he’s just a fucking heel.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
07 Jan 2022 08:58 #329512 by Jackwraith
I think there's something to this, not least because of Walt Disney's quite "traditional" political outlook, which distinctly colored the entire corporate culture (he was very hands-on in film production and especially in animation), but also because we have at least one direct example in Ursula, who was overtly based on Divine. The fact that the camp approach made them likeable while still being villains is, again, I think a mark of the Disney approach, where the bad guy had to be bad, but couldn't be so menacing as to genuinely frighten children who are the target audience for most Disney animation. It's also just a smart storytelling approach to give your characters actual motivation, rather than just making them Sauron ("I am mean and angry... because I am mean and angry!") Granted, Sauron did have motivation (lust for power), but it's not nearly as relatable to something like Syndrome wanting to prove to everyone that he belonged, get back at Mr. Incredible, AND have a lust for power and approbation.
The following user(s) said Thank You: jason10mm, sornars

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
07 Jan 2022 10:48 #329516 by jason10mm
The idea that evil characters express gay traits is an interesting one, though I think it is more that evil characters have to be LOUD and chew scenery so that they can be identified as bad without having to actually do a whole lot of actual evil things, especially in kid films. Most films have that obligatory "evil boss kills his own failing henchman" or one innocent death, but otherwise they are defined by the bombastic portrayal by the actor.

Consider Hans Gruber. Sure he killed some folks but I think most folks latched on to his mannerisms and suave demeanor and the eventual descent into desperation as to why he was a great villain. He is also the dark reflection of McClains working class salt of the earthiness.

If folks attribute this stuff to gay people I think it is because they only really see the "performance queer" personas, not what most homosexuals are like in day to day life.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
10 Jan 2022 09:46 #329597 by Shellhead
A friend came over to play boardgames on Saturday but we also ended up watching The Matrix Resurrections. After dozing off the first time, I wasn't particularly interested in trying again, but my friend doesn't have HBO and doesn't want to risk a movie theater at this time, so we watched it. Much like the awfulness of Donald Trump partially redeemed George W. Bush, The Matrix Resurrections was bad enough to make The Matrix Revolutions seem okay in comparison. The Matrix Resurrections was a completely unnecessary and inferior retread of the excellent first movie in the franchise. I like Neil Patrick Harris, but here he was shouting out his lines to the cheap seats in the back. I also like Keanu Reeves, but he seemed a bit tired and bored with the proceedings. The script was crap. The meta elements were aggressively annoying. The action was a disappointment, especially compared to all the fights in the first movie and the excellent car chase from the second movie. The Matrix Resurrections was an unimaginative cash grab that diminished everyone involved.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Ancient_of_MuMu

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
20 Jan 2022 00:31 #329921 by Jackwraith
Watched The Last Duel. Eh. I mean, it's a Ridley Scott historical epic, which means that it's going to plod along trying to teach everyone something about history and belabor the actual story with that heavy-handed approach. The original story is essentially a medieval soap opera and the depiction of the quite misogynistic culture is done without flinching (Salic law was the very least of it.) I also appreciated the Rashomon-like approach (that's probably my favorite Kurosawa film.) But it lacks the open-endedness of that story and it's difficult to sympathize with any of these characters except Marguerite, which isn't how Rashomon worked. So, I dunno. It's 2.5 hours and it's not a bad film, but it's not something I would urge anyone to see unless you have an interest in that period of history/region (northern France during the Caroline War segment of the Hundred Years' War.)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
20 Jan 2022 08:15 #329922 by charlest
I actually enjoyed it more than I expected, Matt Damon's mullet and all.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
20 Jan 2022 17:01 #329945 by mtagge
Put me in the enjoyed it category. I liked how each of the three versions had slight differences to make each teller more of the hero of that particular story. However LaRogue was still a arrogant low int paladin, Gris was still a charming womanizer who tried to help his friend, Marguerite was the only one whose story broke and was a competent administrator in her version. There was no ambiguity about the actual event, if it happened, and whose fault it was. The problem I had was the event just seemed to randomly be in the middle of nowhere and lack motivation for Gris. He met her once at a single party and talked for ten minutes with his old friends wife. He happened upon the instance when she was alone, managed to break in and take advantage? Years after a single party but he didn't try anything at all when LeRogue was stuck in Scotland.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
21 Jan 2022 08:40 #329952 by Legomancer
Watched The French Dispatch. I'm a Wes Anderson fanboy, so it was a given I'd see it.

It's okay, not one of his best. Very much what you expect. It's three-and-a-bit stories. Two of them are very light, with pretty thin characters. Only one really has something in it, but even that one is kind of pushed back by an intrusive narrator, keeping you from really connecting with it. After Moonrise Kingdom (itself with some distracting silliness) I had high hopes, but Budapest and this are just kind of there for me.

Oh, one notable thing about French Dispatch! It now ties with Royal Tenenbaums as having the most black main characters, at also just one. Come on, Wes.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Shellhead, Jackwraith

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
21 Jan 2022 09:23 #329953 by Jackwraith

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Moderators: Gary Sax
Time to create page: 0.717 seconds