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20 Oct 2018 10:31 #283641 by Jackwraith
I finished the game with all 3 classes in Diablo, played all 7 classes into the 90s on Diablo 3, and played every class to max level and complete sets on Diablo 3. Needless to say, I'm a Diablo fan. I think the essential summation of Diablo (kill monsters for prizes) is true. It basically created the "action RPG" genre. I think the dev team made several serious errors in the creation of Diablo 3 (among them, the auction house that essentially obviated the need to play the game (Why roll the dice on prizes when you can just select what you want from the store?) but I'm interested to see what they have in mind for the future. They've hinted at "several" Diablo projects in the works, but nothing will be mentioned at this year's BlizzCon... just like last year's BlizzCon. It's clear that Diablo is the red-skinned stepchild of the major franchises right now, so I guess we'll see how things shake out.

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20 Oct 2018 10:32 #283642 by Gary Sax
Yeah, that one in the jellyfish area is infuriating for that reason. The only other one I had trouble with finding him in a way I found annoying was in the sewers---it is frustrating to find him if you come into the sewers area from a certain direction.

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20 Oct 2018 12:29 #283645 by BaronDonut
Yeah, it's a shame that there are no options when it comes to Hollow Knight's difficulty--there are many people I know who would love the game but have no real chance of getting through it or having fun with it. That's one thing I think AAA developers actually do well, which is considering a wide range of skills and abilities when tuning their game for potential players. I realize games are tuned for a particular experience, but I truly don't see the harm in an "exploration mode" that cranks back some numbers on the back end and gives a nod to folks who haven't wasted years of their lives developing hand eye coordination for this dumb hobby.

That said, I think Hollow Knight is one of those games that does difficulty right--it's not hard in a macho, hardcore sense. Rather, it's the kind of hard that makes exploration feel tense, and weighty, and adds a twinge of fear that keeps the player from going on autopilot.

There are a few encounters / sections that make a real misstep and are hard for no reason. These are bad sections. But for the most part I think the game hits the right tone.

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20 Oct 2018 13:15 #283647 by Erik Twice
The issue is that, ultimately, you can't make the game "easier" because what makes it not-easy is the actual game.

I haven't played Hollow Knight but, from what I know of it, it's a game of skill, like arcade games or NES classics. And what a a game of skill? Well, for me it's a game where most of the actual game experience is derived, not so much from what happens but from learning and improving and developing certain skills in response to what happens. They are games that really don't have much to offer when it comes to "seeing the end" or seeing the next stage because the next stage is just going to be more skill-tests.

In other words, people who do not want to work on their skills or who do not find it fun can't really have fun with these kind games just like someone who doesn't like socializing won't have fun with a negotiation game. It is anathema to what the game is about. It's a bit like saying, yeah, I want to lift weights as long as I do not get tired and sweat.

And, while I haven't played Hollow Knight, I really think it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that these kind of games are only for "those who haven't wasted years of their lives developing hand-eye coordiantion". Most of the games people talk in these terms are perfectly accessible. Everyone can play and beat Contraor Castlevania, they may just not like doing so. And there's nothing wrong with that, mind, but it's a personal thing, not a game design issue.
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20 Oct 2018 15:53 #283653 by BaronDonut
I think this is an excellent argument for many games, but not for Hollow Knight. Because (to me anyway) the difficulty doesn’t feel totally integral to what makes it work as a game. It’s certainly one element, and depending on who you ask it may vary in importance, but unlike a Contra (or even something like a Dark Souls) I don’t see the challenge as being baked in to its appeal. It’s not a series of skill checks, it’s an unfolding world that’s pleasures (again, to me) are largely sensual. I would love to present this to my non-gamer friends and let them see the animation, the clever intricacies of the world, the character designs, and (my god) the music. And I don’t think it would do the game a great disservice if these folks could just, I dunno, triple their health or something.
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20 Oct 2018 17:11 #283654 by Gary Sax
I think a big appeal of Dark Souls is the imagery and worldbuilding, as well, which is held back by the pattern recognition and difficulty. So I think I agree with you even though I love Dark Souls or Hollow Knight the way it is---but having an option to do an exploration mode would not hinder *my* enjoyment of the core version.

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20 Oct 2018 18:18 #283660 by Chaz
Agree totaslly with the last two posts. A big part of the enjoyment I get from games is story, world exploration, and atmosphere. I really don't enjoy repetition, and I have a broken brain that makes my memory bad, which makes path finding and pattern recognition very hard.

I get the appeal of challenge for some (most?) people. I get how challenge, death, repetition, and learning are part of the overall themes of Dark Souls and other games like it. But the problem is that not everyone is starting from the same point skill-wise, so having a single difficulty that can't be changed means that some people are just going to be locked out unless they're able to devote the time to repeated failures to succeed. Allowing the player to change difficulty doesn't mean you have to make it a cakewalk (though I don't see what the problem is if I want to make it a cakewalk for myself), it just means I can make the challenge appropriate to my skill level. It also means I can keep enjoying the game on the level I'm enjoying it. With how much effort and skill goes into the stuff that I like, it really blows when I can't see the rest because the gameplay won't let me boost my health or drop enemy damage a bit.

Celeste has a fantastic difficulty select. It lets you tweak and adjust a ton of different gameplay elements so you can make the parts yo usuck at a little easier, and the parts you're good at harder. The designer said he originally had no difficulty options, but eventually realized he'd rather make his game accessible to everyone instead of just the ones who are good enough. That's an attitude I wish more devs had.
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20 Oct 2018 19:59 - 21 Oct 2018 06:03 #283666 by Erik Twice

BaronDonut wrote: I think this is an excellent argument for many games, but not for Hollow Knight. Because (to me anyway) the difficulty doesn’t feel totally integral to what makes it work as a game. It’s certainly one element, and depending on who you ask it may vary in importance, but unlike a Contra (or even something like a Dark Souls) I don’t see the challenge as being baked in to its appeal. It’s not a series of skill checks, it’s an unfolding world that’s pleasures (again, to me) are largely sensual.

Hollow Knight is very pretty. But, as a game, I don't think one can deny that it's mainly about skill.

Take this stage, taken at random. You jump around, fight enemies, climb walls, dodge lasers and try to make your way through a laberynthic mine full of danger without getting hit.


Or take one of the multitide of boss fights. What are they about? Pattern recognition, responding to different attacks, timing, precision movement.


Without skill, would these sections make any sense? Would that boss have any value if you didn't have to play around his attacks? Or would he become decoration?

Think about it this way. If you remove all the skill-checks and patterns and the like out of the game, how much game is left? I would wager there wouldn't be a game left, just decoration.

Chaz wrote: Agree totaslly with the last two posts. A big part of the enjoyment I get from games is story, world exploration, and atmosphere. I really don't enjoy repetition, and I have a broken brain that makes my memory bad, which makes path finding and pattern recognition very hard.

But then, why do you want to play this kind of games?

I don't mean this in a hostile manner, I truly don't understand why. If, like you say, you don't like games with are repetitive and struggle with games based on path finding and pattern recognition, why play a game that is mostly about those things? Because for me it's a non-starter, it's trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Other games would be a more logical fit.

And I understand that it may be frustrating to not be able to play a game or not enjoy it because of the way it's designed. But I think the takeaway should not be to say, hey, the game should change for me. Because you guys are more than reasonable, nothing wrong with that, but in the gaming discourse the word is that these games are poorly designed and that not changing them to accomodotae people who don't like what they are about is elitist.

And, well, I feel you. I understand that these games are cool and it's kind of a shame that you can't enjoy them. But I think the takeaway shouldn't be to change this games but for us accept that not all games can be.

Chaz wrote: With how much effort and skill goes into the stuff that I like, it really blows when I can't see the rest because the gameplay won't let me boost my health or drop enemy damage a bit.

Well, the thing is, this is like playing a song. If you get stuck on the third mesure, reducing the number of notes may help you see the fifth but then you have played less of it and chances are you'll also get stuck on the fifth.

I see this often with arcade games. Like many, I used to credit feed, that is, to put credit after credit when I got killed. I also wanted to see the "rest of the game" and get to later stages. But I wasn't.I was just seeing harder stages, stages I wasn't prepared for and getting killed. The more I credit fed, the harder the stages became and the less I cared about the part of the game that I was actually seeing.
Last edit: 21 Oct 2018 06:03 by Erik Twice.
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20 Oct 2018 21:15 #283668 by Gary Sax
The lore, art, and backstory in Hollow Knight is pretty strong, Erik, so I think you could get something out of tourist mode. Dead cells, by contrast, I don't think there's as much you could get from such a mode.

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20 Oct 2018 22:28 #283671 by Chaz
That. I'm thinking mainly of Hollow Knight and the Souls series here, but yeah, in addition to the difficult and opaque gameplay, both of those games/series go in really hard on creating a gorgeous world that's interesting to explore, and a story that's told in a very evocative way. When I'm playing a Soulsborne game, I'm reading all the item descriptions, looking for all the NPCs and other little bits of lore, and admiring the visuals they created. Same with Hollow Knight.

Normally, I don't play that kind of skill-heavy twitch game. I try every once in a while, but I bounce off them pretty quickly when there's no other hook drawing me in. Examples of that have been Dead Cells, Spelunky, and Rogue Legacy. Hollow Knight and the Soulsborne games are not that. They're a weird mix of a world I deeply want to explore and spend time in, and an increasing skill requirement that I can't keep up with saying "No, this is as far as you go until you get much better." With a family demanding time and brain weasels that react really badly to repeated failure, there's only so much better I'm able to get.
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20 Oct 2018 22:39 #283672 by Ah_Pook

hotseatgames wrote:

Ah_Pook wrote: Personally I'm playing a lot of Black Ops 4, which is a solid turn for a franchise that's had a couple of rough years. Blackout mode is super good, though I'm infinitely bad at it.


Do you have PUBG on PC? I can always use a new teammate.


Nah I haven't done PC gaming since the halcyon days of quake 2/3 and counter strike betas. Just PS4 for me any more. If you Black ops on PS4 I'll be happy to lead you to inglorious defeat in blackout mode though ;)

Also, unrelatedly, all this souls talk has me tempted to reinstall Bloodborne, which might be my favorite game. Then I think about the reality of playing Bloodborne and... Maybe watching the waypoint live streams is enough for the moment heh. That game is a real bastard. I probably put 150 hours into it when I was deep in though, and got deeply nerded out reading lore theories online and stuff.
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20 Oct 2018 23:13 #283673 by Gary Sax
The only part that I would not do again in bloodborne is the chalice dungeon set where they cut your health in 1/2. I platinum trophied it and I'd go back and go through it again except for that part.

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21 Oct 2018 08:50 - 21 Oct 2018 09:24 #283681 by Ah_Pook
Did you do the dlc too? It's well worth playing through if you didn't. Great locations, great bosses, great lore.

That chalice Dungeon had I think my favorite boss in the game in it (the fire dog) but yeah it was a real kick in the balls. I had pumped probably way more points into health than anyone ever should so I could take a couple hits from stuff in there instead of getting one shotted, but even still it was brutal.
Last edit: 21 Oct 2018 09:24 by Ah_Pook.

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21 Oct 2018 10:13 - 21 Oct 2018 10:14 #283683 by Count Orlok
I've mentioned it before, but I really tried to like Hollow Knight. The art and atmosphere is just so engaging that I couldn't help but pick it up on sale.

However, I just felt like the game was wasting my time. I know the 8- and 16- bit era holds a special place for many of us, but let's not beat around the bush, they often sucked in terms of design. The games were "difficult", but in a way that covered up the limited storage capacity of cartridges. Call it skill if you want, but there was a very practical limitation that designers had to work through. I remember how much easier games of that era became for me once I was playing ROMs and could save and walk away.

From my experience with Hollow Knight, it's picking up on nostalgia for that era in some of the worst ways. I want to explore, I want to see bosses, I want to fight enemies. I do not want to be forced to double back every time I die fighting a boss. If it takes me five minutes to backtrack from the save point to get to the boss, the game is wasting my time. Pattern recognition is one thing, but artificial restrictions on saving that force me through the same run of enemies and obstacles is just not fun. Is it really adding a greater dimensional of skill to not allow you to save before a boss fight? My game time is limited and needs to be fun. Games that pile on the waiting, backtracking, or other repetitive time wasters are just not for me anymore. I don't want to be reminded that I'm wasting time by playing a game.
Last edit: 21 Oct 2018 10:14 by Count Orlok.
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21 Oct 2018 10:32 #283684 by Chaz
I super feel you on the run back thing. I've always hated games where there's a 30+ second delay between dying and getting to try the thing again. Whether that takes the form of an unskippable animation or loading screen, or a rote run back, it's annoying. For me, it gives me enough time for the frustration and annoyance to take hold, and for my brain to tell me "yeah, see, you suck, you should quit now because you suck." I've had much better luck with skill-heavy, frequent death games where there's almost no delay between dying and getting to retry the thing, because my brain doesn't get a chance to do that. Stuff like Super Meat Boy or Stuntman Ignition were great for that.

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