What TV SHOWS are you watching?

jason10mm wrote: Eh, I dunno about that. Tyrion in show and book is close enough that anyine could draw the comparison. Sure, Dinklage is a suave guy and they wisely didn't try to bury him under scarred face prosthetics, but he is fundamentally a recognizable adaptation.

The Velaryons though, not only was the casting undermining a critical plot point (passing off the Strong boys as Laenors instead of that white guy always near them) but it contradicted the lore, such as it was for them. There were like three prior marriages between Velaryons and Targaryen in the past 4 generations, you'd think they would be a lot more homogenous at that rate.

There ARE black people in that world, they could have added an entire Summer Isle faction if they wanted. I thought the Corlys actor nailed the attitude though, if they had just did a cold open with him I don't think anyone would complain (other than Lore purists, who will always find something to complain about in an adaptation).

Tyrion is described as such in the books: "He was a dwarf, half his brother's height, struggling to keep pace on stunted legs. His head was too large for his body, with a brute's squashed-in face beneath a swollen shelf of brow. One green eye and one black one peered out from under a lank of hair so blonde it seemed white." Apart from "was a dwarf", none of this matches how Dinklage looks. Yet there were no complains from book purists. Brienne is described as having freckles, an oft broken nose, and crooked uneven teeth. None of that matches the show and yet no one cried foul.

Now, for the Velaryons I would argue that making them black was the right thing to do precisely because of the Strong plot. In a book, you can write that the children resemble the Strong family. But by showing that they they aren't black, it's immediately obvious that something is amiss. So from a certain standpoint changing the skin color of the Velaryons actually brings an important book theme to the forefront.

Eh, I recall some discussion at the time about "show blonde" and "Lannister blonde". But there the real important detail was the kids being fair of hair while Robert was not. So while there were some physical differences the primary REASON for those differences was intact to allow the PLOT to work.

For the HotD I feel the ability to over look Rhaenyra infedelity was rooted in a strong (heh heh) sense of plausible deniability. Yeah, their noses and hair were "strong-like" but in the book Laenors mom Rhenys had dark Baratheon hair (I believe this was a retcon from the earliest descriptions of her) so you could squint a bit and let it go.

But imagine the reverse. Laenor in HotD was as described in the book, a fairly typical white guy. But STRONG was black. And then her kids were fairly dark skinned and you put them next to pale white Velaryons and Targs with this one black guy always hanging out with Rhaenyra. Doesn't that totally destroy the narrative for you? It makes the king seem ridiculous as it is a far more "emperors wearing new clothes" act of mass delusion than it needs be because it is shocking obvious to EVERYONE what the deal is.

Anyhoo, it's a trivial point about the show, but it WAS directly due to producers, very early on, deciding to make a racial casting priority despite the source text, plot logic, or any other candidates.

jason10mm wrote: Anyhoo, it's a trivial point about the show, but it WAS directly due to producers, very early on, deciding to make a racial casting priority despite the source text, plot logic, or any other candidates.

Except that it's not "trivial" because this is exactly what this discussion has been about. Mads has pointed out that there were, in fact, deviations from how the characters are described but there was no manufactured outrage until actors who happened to be Black people were cast as Valyrians. You think that's a "racial casting". The rest of us just think it's a "casting", likely because they wanted to have a distinct identity for the Velaryon family that wasn't just "more Valyrians", since Valyria was a pretty populous nation prior to the Fall, which means that it's more than likely that people of different skin tones inhabited it and it also serves the infidelity/bastard storyline. The primary difference here is that you look at Steve Toussaint and see "a Black actor", whereas Mads and I look at him and see "an actor." Isn't it possible that he just auditioned the best for the role (among the variety of candidates that they thought would suit their story) and got it, at which point they also concluded "hey, this works with X storyline, too!" or does it all have to be a "woke" agenda because you look at Black people differently than the standard White people that fit your vision of Westeros? You've as much as accused the production team of prejudice by supposedly favoring Toussaint ("despite... any other candidates") without any evidence to support that accusation whatsoever. It's basically "They put Black people that aren't from the usual tropical zone (Summer Isles) in my White fantasy and, therefore, they had an agenda" without knowing what their process was or if, again, Toussaint was simply the best person for the story they wanted to tell.

There's a racial agenda here, alright, and it ain't on the part of the producers of House of the Dragon, any more than a "gay agenda" was likely on the part of the producers of Willow. There are lots of people in the world that don't look or act anything like you. The fact that more of them are now showing up in front of cameras, rather than just in front of the screens that show them, can only be a positive thing that, in fact, works against the broad cultural agenda that has been present for a very long time.

I finished all 8 episodes of 1899 on Netflix. I went into this with a lot of hope, because it's from the same team that created Dark. Dark is a German mindfuck of a show, and largely interesting throughout.

1899, on the other hand, is nonsensical, doling out secrets at much too slow of a pace. By episode 8 you finally know what's up, but even then


I do not think this show is worth your time. But if you haven't seen Dark yet, Dark is definitely worth your time. Watch it in German.

I realize that not everybody here lives in the United States, but I have a message for the Americans here. If current demographic trends continue, white people will no longer be a majority here by 2045. That's 22 years and a couple of weeks from now. Unless you live in a rural area, you can already see the change happening whenever you are around young people. Diversity is coming, and nothing that you can say or do will change that. You can be a positive person and embrace that change, or you can go to your grave bitter and angry about it.

The series had to do something to show that Rhaenyra's kids were not her husband's, and decided that they'd do it by making the kids look as unambiguously different from the husband as possible. But having the husband be white and her lover be black has some racial connotations in the US above and beyond "cheating on the husband," so if you want to use skin color, the husband has to be dark-skinned. And that then bounces through a good bit of the cast, because that decision affects how all the Velaryons are cast.

I'd bet that before a single actor walked in the door, the characters were described as:
Targaryens - white hair, light skin, just like GoT.
Velaryons - white hair, dark skin,
Strong - dark hair, light skin.
Anybody else - don't care.

Because of all this, the HotD producers couldn't be color-blind when casting some of these roles.

Shellhead wrote: If current demographic trends continue, white people will no longer be a majority here by 2045.

That's a misquote. 2042 is the date thrown around by white supremacists, and the the predicted demographic is that less than 50% of the people in the country will be able to claim that their heritage is solely white, i.e., doesn't have any non-european heritage at all. I'd wager we've already crossed that threshold but people don't have perfect knowledge of their heritage.

As for casting against original writing, the problem is that most books written today and virtually all strong-selling titles from the past have segregation baked into them by the original author, whether intentional or not. A lot of it is out of ignorance to the issue, not overt racism. In the case of The Hunger Games a character clearly described as dark skinned caused a fuss when cast as someone with dark skin because readers of the original source inserted their personal perspective to interpret "dark skin" as olive, rather than brown.

As for Willow. I was pretty amused at the complete role-reversal of the two siblings, the boy clearly a lovestruck lightweight looking for someone to live happily ever after with, and the girl a rough and tumble alpha hero personality. It's flipping the trope on its head. A nice change from the usual, predictable, overused plot element.

Has anyone here stated that they have a problem with the US becoming majority-minority in the next few decades? That seems strawmannish.

As to the pre-Friday freakout, my only issue comes when producers want to have their cake and eat it too with setting v. casting. If you want a fantasy world where real-world genetics don't exist, and children don't look anything like their parents, then knock yourself out -- have an Asian elf kid be born to an Anglo human mom and a black hobbit dad, whatever.

But if the idea that children look like their parents is literally an intrinsic presupposition needed for your plot to work, as in HOTD, then the casting should make it at least somewhat plausible.

The demographic shift is part of the overall set of changes in our challenging time that are driving certain behaviors.

Fox is famously amplifying replacement theory and telling white people to have more children to try to overturn the tide.

It’s not the only cause of racist reaction to more representation in the media, but it is part of it.

Just watched all of Andor in 2 days. Wow.

Jackwraith wrote:

jason10mm wrote: Anyhoo, it's a trivial point about the show, but it WAS directly due to producers, very early on, deciding to make a racial casting priority despite the source text, plot logic, or any other candidates.

Except that it's not "trivial" because this is exactly what this discussion has been about. ....l agenda that has been present for a very long time.

Condal and Sapochowik---whatever his name DID make the choice to have Velaryons be black SPECIFICALLY to avoid "too many white people" in the show. So it is exactly as described, they have been very public about it. I say it is trivial because it doesn't really impact she show as a whole, but it was a decision that undermines the narrative within the world created by GRRM which places people in specific places. Corlys being black meant that his brother (an invented character for the show, replacing a cousin), his kids, and their kids, had to be cast a certain way as well, so clearly not all of these roles were independently cast with just the best actor being selected (Though there are shows that do this). It's just a statement of fact straight from the producer/showrunners. There will be others in season 2 affected by this decision as well. Within the world itself there have been, and will be, more marriages between Targs and Velaryons which make this particular casting choice even more difficult. Hell, Aegon the Conquerors mother was Velaryon. His son marries a Velaryon, one of their kids is King Jaehaerys I, yet he was shown to be white as can be.

I'd have made the Hightowers black, personally, if that was something that was necessary. Then you'd have Otto and Alicent, even more major characters IMHO to the HotD narrative, as well as Aegon II, Aemond, Helaena (and the missing kid). You'd side step the bastard kids being quite so obvious (or at the very least they could have had Viserys confide in Rhaenyra that he KNEW what she did and was glad she could find happiness within the bounds of her arraigned political marriage, and that the right to rule comes from HER, not her husband, which would only reinforce the theme of the show) especially when Rhaenyra/'Laenor's' kids are standing next to Daemon/Laena's kids and it is (literally) a night and day difference, instead of making Viserys seem a buffoon for allowing a man to be executed in his presence for stating the obvious and supporting a manufactured narrative.

It is very possible to discuss the casting in HotD, given the public statements by the showrunners, and how the casting choices impact the narrative, without being racist. I'd hope folks could keep the discussion civil without resorting to ad hominin attacks and strawmanning. The producers had other options, more fitting within the context of the show, if they wished to broaden the cast composition (though they somehow neglected the single largest racial category in their appeal for a new audience).

Sagrilarus wrote: As for Willow. I was pretty amused at the complete role-reversal of the two siblings, the boy clearly a lovestruck lightweight looking for someone to live happily ever after with, and the girl a rough and tumble alpha hero personality. It's flipping the trope on its head. A nice change from the usual, predictable, overused plot element.

Agreed. Willow does a lot of things right (though there are some bizarre aspects to the show construction). Kit is one of them, assuming she continues to bear the consequences of her actions. Jade (?the redhead) is actually one of the more interesting characters, especially with the "your momma made me be your friend" reveal. I really loved the "and they sent you?!?!" line from Elora to the prince guy when he was trying to rescue her as I feel like he is waiting to come into his own and that attitude towards him will change. Hopefully the more off kilter elements (like the woods woman sequence) play better later on, that really felt like a bit from an entirely different show. They also gotta work on the fight choreography or at least not cast 6'+ stunt men to 'duel' these 5'5" petite women because that is VERY hard to pull off and they aren't even close. They also need to figure out more cool ways for Boorman to use that Cloud/Berserk sword because he is, far and away, the best character on the show and should be doing more fighting.

Jexik wrote: Just watched all of Andor in 2 days. Wow.

There is only ONE.....WAY......OUT !!

Andy Serkis deserves an Emmy nomination. For all his work in motion capture, this role was a revelation that hopefully leads him to getting more "normal" work.

Does it have its own thread yet? I feel like it should.

It doesn't, please create one if you have something you want to chat about in it!