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Talk abut Movies & TV here. Just tell us what you have been watching. Have hyper-academic discussions on visual semiotics. Whatever, it's all good.
When did you first notice that Star Wars sucks?
20 Jan 2012 20:47 #113556
by Juniper
When did you first notice that Star Wars sucks? was created by Juniper
I know that a lot of people will answer either "Phantom Menace" or "during the Ewok parts," but I'm pretty sure the Star Wars franchise was irretrievably ruined before the end of the original movie. If Vader has The Force, and a special TIE fighter full of sophisticated sensor equipment, how could The Millennium Falcon sneak up on him? And why was Vader in a TIE fighter at all? Does the pope fly an F-15 in the Vatican Air Force?
Seriously, I think Star Wars died around the same instant as Biggs. The story needed the Errol Flynn lookalike Biggs because he was someone to whom we could compare Luke Skywalker, allowing us to reflect on the nature of Luke's heroism. Han Solo eventually took on that role instead, pushing Biggs almost completely out of the movie (is he there at all in the latest edits?). The problem with Han Solo, as opposed to Biggs, is that the audience *likes* Solo, and Luke doesn't compare favourably. If Han Solo sucked more, Luke would have seemed like less of a whiny ass, and the writers wouldn't have had to cook up that cringe-inducing incest angle to resolve the Luke-Han-Leia love triangle.
Seriously, I think Star Wars died around the same instant as Biggs. The story needed the Errol Flynn lookalike Biggs because he was someone to whom we could compare Luke Skywalker, allowing us to reflect on the nature of Luke's heroism. Han Solo eventually took on that role instead, pushing Biggs almost completely out of the movie (is he there at all in the latest edits?). The problem with Han Solo, as opposed to Biggs, is that the audience *likes* Solo, and Luke doesn't compare favourably. If Han Solo sucked more, Luke would have seemed like less of a whiny ass, and the writers wouldn't have had to cook up that cringe-inducing incest angle to resolve the Luke-Han-Leia love triangle.
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- Black Barney
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20 Jan 2012 20:54 #113558
by Black Barney
Replied by Black Barney on topic Re: When did you first notice that Star Wars sucks?
Jake Lloyd - Phantom Menace. jarjar STILL doesn't get on my nerves anything like Jake Lloyd does. But at this point, i was still so bewildered by the awesome saber fight as well as the great podrace that I hadn't given up on Star Wars.
Then Attack of the Clones happened and 3P0 became the most horrible joke-teller ever. Every single time he spoke it was to make a cliche joke. At this point I fully gave up on Star Wars.
I think you're wrong to give up on Star Wars from Episode IV. A Special TIE Fighter does NOT have fancy sensor equipment. You can blame the Force if anything. Vader was pretty focused at the time anyway
Then Attack of the Clones happened and 3P0 became the most horrible joke-teller ever. Every single time he spoke it was to make a cliche joke. At this point I fully gave up on Star Wars.
I think you're wrong to give up on Star Wars from Episode IV. A Special TIE Fighter does NOT have fancy sensor equipment. You can blame the Force if anything. Vader was pretty focused at the time anyway
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20 Jan 2012 21:07 #113563
by Bulwyf
Replied by Bulwyf on topic Re: When did you first notice that Star Wars sucks?
Ewoks.
That and when I relaized that my favorite SW movie was not directed by Lucas.
-Will
That and when I relaized that my favorite SW movie was not directed by Lucas.
-Will
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20 Jan 2012 21:10 #113564
by Shellhead
Replied by Shellhead on topic Re: When did you first notice that Star Wars sucks?
I was uneasy about Lando in The Empire Strikes Back, because the first black guy we see in the entire galaxy is a traitor. Then the Ewoks in Return of the Jedi were a huge red flag, but I was willing to give Lucas another chance based on the overall quality of the first two movies. But then later in Return of the Jedi, there were these truly stupid-looking black aliens... basically black people wearing oddly colorful prosthetic noses and ears. It was like somebody complained about Lando to George Lucas and he responded with deliberately cheap costuming for the black aliens. At that point I was done with the Star Wars frachise, and Jar-Jar "Little Black Sambo" Binks did nothing to win me back.
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20 Jan 2012 21:17 - 20 Jan 2012 23:47 #113568
by mikecl
Replied by mikecl on topic Re: When did you first notice that Star Wars sucks?
When I saw the first episode for the second time, maybe 20 years after its original release. Nothing gets stale faster than old special effects, but hey...it was awesome....once. I never really got into the subsequent Star Wars craze either. I think I saw the first prequel but that was it.
It was a good movie....for its time.
It was a good movie....for its time.
Last edit: 20 Jan 2012 23:47 by mikecl.
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20 Jan 2012 21:19 #113569
by Jackwraith
Replied by Jackwraith on topic Re: When did you first notice that Star Wars sucks?
Kenobi told Luke early in Star Wars that his father was the "best pilot in the galaxy". With that in mind, why wouldn't he take to his ship and deal with the problem directly? That's completely within the scope of the character. Also, I'm not sure where you're getting "sophisticated sensor equipment" since no mention of same was ever given in the film (or in any associated material, to my knowledge.) He acknowledges that "the Force is strong in this one" while he's trying to track down Luke in the trench. With that in mind, he's probably not too concerned about protecting his six, especially with two wingmen present who are supposed to do just that for the leader.
Furthermore, Vader is not analogous to the Pope in this situation. Tarkin had supreme command of the Death Star, so it would have been unusual to see Tarkin hop in a TIE fighter. Or, for that matter, the Emperor in the new Death Star in Return. I'm not sure why you're even including Biggs in the equation, since he has a total of about 30 seconds of screen time and a brief reference in the early part of the movie. He's essentially a plot device demonstrating Luke's desire to get off Tattoine and was never meant to be more than that.
Finally, the "writers" didn't have to come up with the incest issue. Lucas has stated before that the two of them were siblings from the very beginning and she was intended to fall for the "bad guy" from the outset.
So, I guess I'm saying that I'm not sure where the foundation is for your complaints. I mean, obviously, if that's your opinion, that's your opinion. But it seems to be based on a lot of assertions that either don't have a basis in the script or seem to be drawn from very little substance.
For me, it kinda died with the Ewoks. I was disturbed that we went from the dark and gripping Empire to the utterly sanitized Return (it was originally titled "Revenge of the Jedi" before Lucas decided that was too violent or some such thing.) But the death knell was definitely the prequels. The story was shallow; the script was awful; the action scenes seemed to be designed for marketing as games (admittedly, I have a copy of Queen's Gambit and love it...) It was just a bad film and made very capable actors (Portman, MacGregor, Neeson) look like complete idiots. The subsequent films were even worse in many respects.
Lucas says that's the kind of corny shit that makes him happy so, whatevs. But I was pretty dismayed to see a franchise that I had loved as a kid (I saw the first film a week after its release, when I was 7 years old, and then another 3 times after that) basically ignore its long-time audience in favor of... something.
Furthermore, Vader is not analogous to the Pope in this situation. Tarkin had supreme command of the Death Star, so it would have been unusual to see Tarkin hop in a TIE fighter. Or, for that matter, the Emperor in the new Death Star in Return. I'm not sure why you're even including Biggs in the equation, since he has a total of about 30 seconds of screen time and a brief reference in the early part of the movie. He's essentially a plot device demonstrating Luke's desire to get off Tattoine and was never meant to be more than that.
Finally, the "writers" didn't have to come up with the incest issue. Lucas has stated before that the two of them were siblings from the very beginning and she was intended to fall for the "bad guy" from the outset.
So, I guess I'm saying that I'm not sure where the foundation is for your complaints. I mean, obviously, if that's your opinion, that's your opinion. But it seems to be based on a lot of assertions that either don't have a basis in the script or seem to be drawn from very little substance.
For me, it kinda died with the Ewoks. I was disturbed that we went from the dark and gripping Empire to the utterly sanitized Return (it was originally titled "Revenge of the Jedi" before Lucas decided that was too violent or some such thing.) But the death knell was definitely the prequels. The story was shallow; the script was awful; the action scenes seemed to be designed for marketing as games (admittedly, I have a copy of Queen's Gambit and love it...) It was just a bad film and made very capable actors (Portman, MacGregor, Neeson) look like complete idiots. The subsequent films were even worse in many respects.
Lucas says that's the kind of corny shit that makes him happy so, whatevs. But I was pretty dismayed to see a franchise that I had loved as a kid (I saw the first film a week after its release, when I was 7 years old, and then another 3 times after that) basically ignore its long-time audience in favor of... something.
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20 Jan 2012 21:20 #113570
by repoman
Replied by repoman on topic Re: When did you first notice that Star Wars sucks?
Well I'm sure all this shit has be nerd-analyzed to death elsewhere but let me say this. The original idea of the story was modified after the first movie.
It is clear that in the original Star Wars, Luke and Leia are NOT brother and sister. Han becomes her love interest in later movies because the good girl/bad boy dynamic was better than princess/peasant dynamic between Luke and Leia. Luke also becomes a paladin figure later and thus above sexuality. They don't become brother and sister until Return of the Jedi and that of course is where Lucas' ideas were getting worse.
It is clear that Vader is outside the normal power structure of the Empire's military in the first movie. He is not a junior emperor. He is more of a special agent sent to deal with problems outside the bounds of day to day oppression. He is clearly outranked by the Admiral in charge of the Death Star. A real world analogy would be Sepp Deitrich in WW2. An SS officer sent to "put out fires"...he was high ranking, he was feared and he commanded a tank when he needed to just like Vader piloting a Tie fighter when he needs to.
As to how the Millennium Falcon can sneak up. Vader was in a duel with Luke at the time. Focusing his piloting and force against Luke's in an attempt to target him. It is not surprising he paid little heed to the rest of the battle. Also remember they were in a trench. Sensors that can see through everything, detect everything and can analyze everything from any distance is pure Star Trek not Star Wars.
Biggs is really a side note. He is not the character to whom we relate. That is Han Solo. He's the everyday guy skeptical of causes and the force.
In the end, the first two movies are awesome. They are consistent and hold together. It is not until Lucas grabs back the reins in Return of the Jedi and surrounds himself with yes men that the series begins to fall apart.
It is clear that in the original Star Wars, Luke and Leia are NOT brother and sister. Han becomes her love interest in later movies because the good girl/bad boy dynamic was better than princess/peasant dynamic between Luke and Leia. Luke also becomes a paladin figure later and thus above sexuality. They don't become brother and sister until Return of the Jedi and that of course is where Lucas' ideas were getting worse.
It is clear that Vader is outside the normal power structure of the Empire's military in the first movie. He is not a junior emperor. He is more of a special agent sent to deal with problems outside the bounds of day to day oppression. He is clearly outranked by the Admiral in charge of the Death Star. A real world analogy would be Sepp Deitrich in WW2. An SS officer sent to "put out fires"...he was high ranking, he was feared and he commanded a tank when he needed to just like Vader piloting a Tie fighter when he needs to.
As to how the Millennium Falcon can sneak up. Vader was in a duel with Luke at the time. Focusing his piloting and force against Luke's in an attempt to target him. It is not surprising he paid little heed to the rest of the battle. Also remember they were in a trench. Sensors that can see through everything, detect everything and can analyze everything from any distance is pure Star Trek not Star Wars.
Biggs is really a side note. He is not the character to whom we relate. That is Han Solo. He's the everyday guy skeptical of causes and the force.
In the end, the first two movies are awesome. They are consistent and hold together. It is not until Lucas grabs back the reins in Return of the Jedi and surrounds himself with yes men that the series begins to fall apart.
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20 Jan 2012 21:39 #113574
by Michael Barnes
Replied by Michael Barnes on topic Re: When did you first notice that Star Wars sucks?
I love the Ewoks. If I run into another fat, slobbering fuck that claims that the Ewoks "ruined" Star Wars...not saying that's y'all, but I've seen a couple. Usually their the same kind of people that were all miffed that the prequels weren't Jedi Decapitation-athon 1999 and don't realize that these are family pictures intended for kids and adults. Star Wars was never full of 1990s-style post-teenage darkness and hard ass characters. It never should be.
The Ewoks are cool as hell. I love that they're primitive bear people that fight with rocks and sticks. I like that they're kid-oriented, I love that they make Return of the Jedi classifiable as a midget film. I like seeing their babies, I like Wicket, I like that C3PO (a golden man from the sky) tells them the stories that will one day become their religion. I like the "jub jub" song, all of it.
I like Jedi too. I think it's the most _fun_ out of all three OT films. It covers a lot of ground and maintains a light, swashbuckly tone. And come the fuck on y'all, the space battle at the end is the BEST EVER.
Where I noticed that SW sucks though, wasn't actually in Episode I. I gave that the benefit of a doubt. It was really in Episode II, when Anakin and Padme date. That was so, so, so, so, so awful. That was the first time where I just blindly hated something Star Wars. In retrospect, Jake Lloyd's "are you an angel" line might have done it too.
I'm going to watch Jedi tonight. Screw y'all.
The Ewoks are cool as hell. I love that they're primitive bear people that fight with rocks and sticks. I like that they're kid-oriented, I love that they make Return of the Jedi classifiable as a midget film. I like seeing their babies, I like Wicket, I like that C3PO (a golden man from the sky) tells them the stories that will one day become their religion. I like the "jub jub" song, all of it.
I like Jedi too. I think it's the most _fun_ out of all three OT films. It covers a lot of ground and maintains a light, swashbuckly tone. And come the fuck on y'all, the space battle at the end is the BEST EVER.
Where I noticed that SW sucks though, wasn't actually in Episode I. I gave that the benefit of a doubt. It was really in Episode II, when Anakin and Padme date. That was so, so, so, so, so awful. That was the first time where I just blindly hated something Star Wars. In retrospect, Jake Lloyd's "are you an angel" line might have done it too.
I'm going to watch Jedi tonight. Screw y'all.
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20 Jan 2012 21:39 #113575
by Disgustipater
Replied by Disgustipater on topic Re: When did you first notice that Star Wars sucks?
The following user(s) said Thank You: scissors
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20 Jan 2012 21:46 #113576
by Steve Weeks
Replied by Steve Weeks on topic Re: When did you first notice that Star Wars sucks?
Star Wars has never sucked. All the movies have been entertaining. It only sucks for those where Star Wars is a lifestyle much like Trekies. A Geek dressed as a Stormtrooper likes to believe he is badass and this is hard to do marching next to an Ewok at a Con.
Watch the movie, enjoy and move on.
Watch the movie, enjoy and move on.
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