Game of Thrones TV extravaganza

My secret hope is that Jon, Daenerys, Cersei, Gendry, and anyone else who might have a claim to the Iron Throne all end up dead. The survivors (Davos, Tyrion, Varys, Yara, Sam, maybe Tormund) hold a Constitutional Convention and found the First Republic of Westeros with a representational government. Tyrion is elected the first President of Westeros. Varys is his vice president.

Martin's books have consistently undermined the overly romanticized view of chivalry and nobility that the fantasy genre typically wallows in. I'd love to see Martin blow away this notion of a "benevolent tyrant."

Gary Sax wrote: I have had this secret desire for the ending to be that Gendry takes the throne for like 6 years. I always thought the slow turn towards authoritarianism in the books by Dany fit this as well. I had written it off because Gendry has mostly disappeared in the books, but his reappearance in the show so prominently has my ears up about it again.

It's very consistent with Martin's thesis thorughout the books---it's outcasts and oppressed people who tend to have the most cogent view of what is right and wrong in these books. If you've read a knight of the seven kingdoms, that is basically this plot writ large if there was a shocker and Gendry took the throne. Egg ends up being a great king if you read the backstory, and a lot of that is due to being castoff and forced to live as a common hedge knight's squire.

Also, his confession was extremely out of place in the scene with Arya unless it is going to mean something in the future. It's a small chance but I would be so thrilled if that's how Martin's series ended. It's perfect to the themes of the show imo.

Tell that to Aegon V:

awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aegon_V_Targaryen

But, naw, in real talk I agree with you, Shellhead. I'm just saying it's a wild ending that would make a lot of sense from the book's perspective. I'm going to be really disappointed when it turns out that it's like the mad Targaryen family (Jon or Dany) who ends up right back on the throne like the bad old days (depending on which side of the Targaryen gene pool you end up in). I feel like the series touches on a lot of other themes, but I guess that would be comfortable in the "shit ain't fair" category.

Haven't seen last night's episode yet.

Joebot wrote: My secret hope is that Jon, Daenerys, Cersei, Gendry, and anyone else who might have a claim to the Iron Throne all end up dead. The survivors (Davos, Tyrion, Varys, Yara, Sam, maybe Tormund) hold a Constitutional Convention and found the First Republic of Westeros with a representational government. Tyrion is elected the first President of Westeros. Varys is his vice president.

The great thing is that this is basically in the books! The story of Braavos *is* this. Liberated former slaves in a limited representation republic parallel to Venice's IRL.

Joebot wrote:

Shellhead wrote: Some people require surprises in their entertainment. I don't, though I resent when somebody spoils a surprise for me. One thing that I have really enjoyed so far about this final season is actually the quantity of non-surprising interactions between characters. Why? Because I have known some of these characters for a long time and it is somewhat gratifying when they make decisions that fit who they are instead of a transient need for a surprise twist.

Do you feel like Daenerys' recent "heel turn" fits into this? I've found her recent actions to be quite sudden and jarring, and not in-character at all. For 7 3/4 seasons, she's been presented as a bold, progressive, compassionate leader. She destroyed the slave trade! She just wants to make the world a better place. Very smart characters like Tyrion and Varys and Davos have come to believe in her and what she represents. We've been ROOTING for her!!

But in the span of about 4 episodes, all of that hard work and characterization has been thrown out the window. Now she's rash and moody and impulsive, and she's threatening to nuke a major city out of vengeance. This all feels so contrived to me! This is the showrunners realizing, "Shit, we killed everybody else, and we need more conflict!" So they've tried to drive this silly wedge between Jon and Daenerys, and it just doesn't jibe. I also find it uncomfortably sexist in how the show is portraying Daenerys as too emotionally unstable to rule, and Jon is more calm and measured. Jon is a fucking idiot!

I think that it's a plausible change that Martin always intended to write, but never got around to putting on the page. I doubt that the show was intended to be completely and radically different from the books. And while Dany had honorable and decent intentions along the way, her solutions often involved setting people on fire. Like that old line about how the man with the hammer sees every problem as a nail. I can absolutely believe that she has become self-righteous to the point where she no longer heeds her advisors, because that has happened in the past. Most viewers didn't seem to think that it was a big deal that she toasted both Tarly and son, but other characters on the show reacted strongly about burning the son simply for loyalty to his father.

In last night's episode, Cersei goaded Dany into probably making a reckless and unnecessary attack when a methodical siege would have worked well. Many innocents will probably be killed in the process, and if any of them were toasted by a dragon, Dany is going to look pretty bad to the people of Westeros.

At this point I'm 100% convinced that they've squeezed too much shit into two seasons. A couple of examples from last night's show:

- Sansa says, "We're kind of beat up. We really could use some rest." And Daenerys says, "No, Cersei will just get stronger." Why? She's got all the troops she's going to get, right now, and the good guys would just get stronger with a little rest.

- Then Tyrion puts forth the idea that they should just lay siege to King's Landing. "No, we need to do this right now." Again, why? Or for that matter, how? Sieges are a thing, and given Medieval-level warfare, that was the only way to get into a fortified city. Short of her plan of somehow wiping out the Golden Company before they get behind the walls.

We haven't heard a good reason yet as to why this needs to be done right the fuck now. Just, "Daenerys says so." Daenerys doesn't say so, the fact that the show has two episodes left says so. I don't normally like to nitpick at a show, and up until S7 I didn't. But they've had really good setpieces stitched together with total crap.

With more time, Qyburn would be able to build a lot more of those high-tech explosive missiles disguised as ballista bolts.

I'm really disappointed in the lack of siege. While seems boring, siege allows GoT-style negotiation, backstabbing, and maybe stealth missions. But then again, most fantasy media have always ignored sieges. Even the less boring siege engines are often left out.

I really like it back then when GoT had actual sieges.

Yes to the sieges, and yes regarding SPOILER. He has a low animal cunning, but gets everything done because there are practically no other bad guys left.

The Battle of Winterfell: A Tactical Analysis

RobertB wrote: The Battle of Winterfell: A Tactical Analysis

Not bad, but they overlook the errors made by the Night King. Biggest mistake by the Night King was the failure to lay siege to Winterfell. His troops didn't need food or water, while the defenders had limited food stores for their defending force, especially in the winter.

Shellhead wrote:

RobertB wrote: The Battle of Winterfell: A Tactical Analysis

Not bad, but they overlook the errors made by the Night King. Biggest mistake by the Night King was the failure to lay siege to Winterfell. His troops didn't need food or water, while the defenders had limited food stores for their defending force, especially in the winter.

The author didn't look at that at a strategic level, and just took the desired outcomes as a given. But you're right - they could have killed everyone else and saved Bran for last.

That wasn't a mistake.

One thing I absolutely love from the NK is