Coronavirus

Here is a picture of one of my old gamer friends with his gaming group in Indiana. You can tell it was taken during this pandemic, because two people are wearing masks on their necks. You can tell that it's a red state because nobody is practicing social distancing and the only masks in sight are on necks. I hope that everybody made their Fortitude saves, since they clearly failed their Wisdom checks.



This kind of ongoing reckless idiocy causes me a great deal of stress. This is why cases are spiking in so many states and ICU beds are filling up in some areas.

I'm glad a lot of you guys were able to stay employed when all travel stopped. My family was not so lucky and this 6 months of lockdown has crushed them completely. And it has crushed SO MANY. And lots of folks are dying BECAUSE of the lockdown, mostly because disease and cancer treatment took a multi-month holiday. I know this because I see it directly as well. It isn't hard to see the emotional impact of the lockdown, it is written all over this thread.

Yet the data is very clear. Lockdowns only work when they are in effect, the second they are lifted the disease spreads. And if Michigan gets a petition with enough support to end the lockdown, AND the highest court in the state says the governor doesn't have the authority to enforce it, AND the law enforcent agencies in the state say they won't enforce illegal policies, AND the governor says to hell with it I'm gonna do what I want....well that is pretty much the definition of a dictatorship. Doesn't matter if YOU personally disagree, the mix of people in that state have decided differently. Many other states have done the same. My 70+ year old grandparents are at Disney World right now. The risk to them from covid is about as high as it gets but the reality is the risk is minute for almost anyone not very old or in a nursing home. This is undeniable with even a cursory review of the data. We MUST take a breath and not let covid rule over our lives because it isn't going anywhere for YEARS, if ever. I hope everyone has taken these past 6 months to lose weight, get physically healthy, and consider life when globalization has been proven to be an existential risk.

I'm not aware of any location in the world did a full shutdown for six months. And if a country doesn't do a full lockdown for at least a few weeks, then the partial lockdown does nothing except temporarily slow the spread of the virus. I'm sorry that some people have lost their livelihood for six months, because we might have gotten this under control in one month if we had seriously tried.

By full lockdown, I mean everybody stays home except for cops, hospital personnel, and grocery store workers. Nobody leaves home except to get groceries, and then they mask up and maintain distancing at the store. If anybody develops symptoms during that lockdown, they get tested and they comply with contract tracing to identify other people who should be tested. People who test positive must stay in quarantine until their symptoms go away and they obtain a positive test result. Do that for a month, and that is longer than most cases, plus plenty of time to isolate the sick and identify who they may have infected.

We haven't done that, we have just playacted that we did a shutdown, and then many of us have pretended that the virus doesn't matter anymore because people want to work out at the gym and dine in a restaurant. Here in Minnesota, I can do almost anything that I did before the pandemic, though certain types of business have mandatory spacing requirements and many businesses are voluntarily taking precautions. And that is why Minnesota has been experiencing a record surge in cases lately. And all of the surrounding states are even worse, because they have done even less.

jason10mm wrote: Yet the data is very clear. Lockdowns only work when they are in effect, the second they are lifted the disease spreads.

This is categorically untrue, as noted by example in multiple other nations: New Zealand, Taiwan, South Korea, even early on in places like Denmark, where the government simply ordered everyone to stay at home and paid a percentage, if not all, of their salaries. Cases are surging now because of close contact with Sweden; another nation that has continued to act like collective fools. Our nation is more than wealthy enough to do what Denmark did and stop this thing in its tracks. But, instead, being led by a bunch of Congressional ideologues and an incompetent, egotistical moron, they either ignored the threat or deliberately lied about it in the case of the latter. We could be past this or only dealing with occasional outbreaks like much of the world. The fact that you've chosen to turn your anger/disdain on the measures attempting to protect the population, perhaps because you haven't seen anyone actually die from COVID-19, is the issue in this particular thread.

As for Michigan, just FYI: the state department of health and human services has already begun continuing the orders that the governor was attempting to continue. This time, instead of an emergency measures law from 1945, which is what the state supreme court objected to, they're using a law from... the 1918 flu pandemic, which gives the state health department the authority to continue the same measures that the governor wanted (masks in public space, restricting of large gatherings, etc.) So, does that qualify as dictatorial overreach or does it sound like people playing political games with a public health crisis? Could the Republicans just have let "that woman from Michigan" do the right thing in the first place or was it important to go through all this rigamarole to score points? You tell me.

I sympathize with your family's troubles. I know many people in similar situations right now, just like Uba's neighbor, who've lost everything they worked for from circumstances beyond their control. But, again, that's something that the federal government is more than wealthy enough to have helped alleviate and chose not to. The governor of Michigan first came to national prominence and the Idiot's attention because the federal government chose not to assist states in crisis. The fact of the matter is that COVID is already ruling our lives and has ended the lives of 220,000 of your fellow citizens because the government's response was not just incompetent, but deliberately restrained. So, you might want to think about that when choosing whom to be angry with or to accuse of governmental malfeasance or how to respond to current circumstances. The fact that your grandparents are willing to risk their own lives isn't really the issue. It's whom they also choose to risk because they're acting irresponsibly. I sure hope it doesn't turn out to be you, your wife, and your children.

This is the most useful thing I've read in quite a while: www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/...ing-pandemic/616548/

The crux of it is that backward contact tracing ("who gave it to you") is far more important than "who might you have given it to?"

The ability to find and isolate superspreaders is what makes recoveries like South Korea possible.

Lockdowns of any sort are useful inasmuch as they prevent a lot of potential noise in that tracing, but aren't specifically a real preventative measure, especially when they're half-assed and poorly adhered to. The contact tracing is what really separates the successes from the failures here. The lockdowns are the sandbags to hold back the flood, but until the real issue is addressed it's just delaying.

We're going to be in a holding pattern for quite a while, because our government is focused on other things like fucking around with court seats.

Hello from South East China. I have been here since July 19th. Although I did have to spend the next two week after my arrival locked in my house with my family. We did a COVID test before we got on the flight (China mandates within 72 hours) and immediately upon landing by local CDC equivalent folks. The US test was pleasant and our employer used pediatric swabs in and out, easy peasy. The China test was unpleasant and used a thick cotton swab stuck in the back of the nose and left for two minutes, twirled and then removed. We were given special permission to quarantine in our residences instead of a quarantine hotel. Those on our flight who were destined for another city were able to stay in a nicer hotel with added precautions at USG expense. Each day of the quarantine we had someone stop by our door and take our temperature and pictures. At the end of the two weeks we were given another COVID test (throat swab this time) and released after that.

Life inside the city is . . . normalish. There have been permanent changes, but no sign of the virus anywhere for the two months I have been back. One example of the changes is you can no longer buy loose vegetables everything is pre-bagged, pre-weighed, and pre-priced. Take it or leave it. On one hand much more convenient, on the other much more plastic. Riding a bus a mask is mandatory (I use a standing scooter so no change for me). At the gym they added a field to the sign in sheet to put our temperature and have a reader at the front desk. Temperature readings at the school bus for the kids, no student is allowed on the bus (or in the school) with any fever (COVID or other again another positive). Parents aren't allowed in the schools at all without a recent test (and then only for a specific visit) so no school play this year (to my oldest son's dismay), parent teacher conferences are via the web (can we keep this one permanent?), and the middle school is online learning on Wednesdays. The high school is split into two one is off Monday/Thursday, the other Tuesday/Friday, leaning heavily on Microsoft O365 Teams until all the teachers and students can return. I . . . actually think it is an improvement as self-management, proper use of email and chat, and online tools are important skills to master for the future. But then again we are there to help guide our children.

Things are slightly more expensive for me, but that is only because there is a tax holiday for most things people buy. Here they aren't stupid like in the US and train people to hate and fear taxes so the tax is hidden inside the price. I only notice because when we spend over $100 we get a tax receipt and get a refund once a quarter. So the grocery bill is "higher" and I didn't get a "discount" when I bought a newer, higher end Segway 9bot scooter. Traveling is a mess and you need to navigate a bunch of Chinese language only "health apps". I'll be going to the Embassy in Beijing this month so I'll need a local to help set me up with my QR code for travel. Us white folks also get pulled out for special screening whenever we travel which makes it a struggle. And with the quarantine restrictions we aren't allowed to travel or vacation outside the country (to include Hong Kong). A lot of us feel trapped (and we are) because China is a very totalitarian state.

Flipping through the channels last night they did talk about an outbreak in a Chinese city. It originated from the COVID hospital that was treating arrivals. So China does still get infections via inbound travelers (mostly Chinese citizens who were abroad). But the government rolls out mass testing and support. It will be gone there in a month with almost no disruption to the city because they caught it early and contained it. Jason is just flat out wrong, it is hard to describe how wrong he is. If a country of over a billion can not only manage but control this virus with government support it is possible. Six weeks lockdown, precautions, contract tracing, government support, restricted international face-to-face interaction, and a population that isn't 30% jerks. Really the key is slowing down the freedom of movement and forcing testing and quarantine of travelers. Gotta give up those tourism dollars though until an entire country is better. Gotta hire government employees to help with testing, enforcing quarantine, and contract tracing. Gotta get this idea of taxes and government services are evil and put it in the dustbin of history.

Dude, look at what you wrote...A lot of us feel trapped (and we are) because China is a very totalitarian state....If a country of over a billion can not only manage but control this virus with government support it is possible.

You are talking about CHINA. They are working a million Uighurs to DEATH RIGHT NOW. Please don't hold them up as some sort of model the free world should emulate in this crisis.

COVID is real, but it isn't the world ending plague that was sold to us. It is several times deadlier than the flu, but we have faced things like this in the past without torching our entire global economy. We have the drugs and treatment plans for covid now. We know who are at risk now. We know folks under 65 without obesity, hypertension, and DM have a very low hospitalization rate and death rate. We COULD get back to work.

reason.com/2020/09/29/the-latest-cdc-est...amatically-with-age/

Just look at the emotional stress in this thread. Some of you guys are dying right now from stress, anxiety, depression, and lack of exercise and sunlight. Add in the delay in medical screening and the consequences of reduced income, plus the lockdown related unemployment that will overwhelmingly hit lower income families, not white collar ones like on this forum, and there will be a true health crisis once this manufactured one passes.

I just don't think you're convincing posters with your relax and get used to it posts, it's just a bit worse than the flu and not worth what we're doing, no matter how many times you post a variant of how normal things are in your town and you wish we could all experience it. People are having different experiences and have a very different assessment of the situation and its risk. I do not think it is because you have not communicated your "case" sufficiently.

The virus decides.

The superintendent of schools in Anne Arundel County announced that school would begin in-person classes in November for primary schools, classes split in two, each going two days a week. The teachers found out first from parents who received the robo-call announcing it. It was a complete surprise across the entire organization.

. . . and two weeks later it all comes tumbling down when the teachers start asking the obvious questions and don’t get answers that add up. What measures will be taken to protect staff? Will there be firebreaks between different groups of students and teachers? One case in the school could take four or five adults offline for two weeks regardless of a positive test. Who backfills and what’s the contingency when that happens? Can teachers refuse to participate? Do they need a medical reason which, frankly, is pretty easy to get?

Tonight the decision was rescinded, though the call hasn’t gone out yet. Maryland has been better than most states, but we hardly quarantined by any stretch of the imagination. The goal was to “flatten the curve” which we did, but that just kept emergency rooms from being overrun. There never was a true shelter-place order because everyone is an essential worker for something or other. So it’s in the community and spreads, and if anyone is going to spread it it’s going to be elementary school kids.

jason10mm wrote: Dude, look at what you wrote...A lot of us feel trapped (and we are) because China is a very totalitarian state....If a country of over a billion can not only manage but control this virus with government support it is possible.

You are talking about CHINA. They are working a million Uighurs to DEATH RIGHT NOW. Please don't hold them up as some sort of model the free world should emulate in this crisis.

I despise China's human rights abuses and system of government. I hate their propaganda system, although I see if frequently copied exactly by certain media outlets in the West.

One thing I argue against is deciding what course of action to take based on who is doing what. Rather I advocate for looking at the evidence and supporting information regardless of who is taking action. And many other countries are taking these same actions successfully without violating human rights.

What China is doing regarding COVID that doesn't violate human rights:
-Restricting travel from abroad to essential and travel by citizens.
-Mandatory quarantine upon arrival or after suspected case.
-Monitoring compliance by local government and hiring more employees to meet those needs.
-Enacting safety measures in public spaces.
-Clear consistent messaging about masks.
-Immediate action by local government when cases are discovered with robust contact tracing.
-Free, widespread, easily accessible testing in communities where cases are identified.
-Lockdowns in specific areas for limited times in affected communities.

We could do that in the US without violating any laws or rights. However there is a propaganda effort underway to undermine trust in government. There is also a lack of political will to tackle the problem. The reality is we have a political movement that has as a main plank is to neuter public goods and services. Their propaganda efforts are top notch though and just as good as China's propaganda. They don't even need a Great Firewall to keep information out, they just need to use fear to keep people locked in.

mtagge wrote: The reality is we have a political movement that has as a main plank is to neuter public goods and services.

Exactly right. When you have a major political entity fomenting the idea that government, as a concept, can do nothing right, while electing people to that government to carry that same message, this is the morass that you end up with. It doesn't help that said entity has a major aversion to science for other political reasons (religion, funding from energy companies, etc.), but which is also a message of: "Don't trust authorities." This is part of the manifestation of modern libertarianism that I was writing about.

Lately, I have noticed that people tend to seem more attractive when wearing a mask on their face. I can't see their nose or mouth, and somehow my mind automatically sketches in pleasant and symmetrical features. Conversely, an improperly worn mask looks awful. A nose hanging out seems as awkward as plumber's crack, and a mask on the chin or neck just looks idiotic. I wear a mask in public whenever I get near people, then take it off and put it in my pocket when I am not near people.

When I see people either not wearing a mask or wearing it improperly, I avoid them like the literal plague that they are. They may as well be wrapped in a confederate flag, that is how much I don't want to be around them.

Went to the zoo this past weekend where masks are mandatory. If I had a nickel for every nose poking out above a mask I could have bought an actual lion.

NSFW



It's been better, but you still see a lot of noses poking out. Fewer masks worn under their chins.

The NFL is serious about masks. If you've been watching games you've seen masks go from, "I'm wearing it wherever I want," to taking it seriously. Wear your mask wrong, and it's a $100K fine for the coach, and a $250K fine for the team.