Coronavirus

Nixxed

Another potential explanation for vaccine hesitancy in the Black community, though I think any explanation is probably just part of the whole...

And while I'm here, I've gone back to masking full-time in public and when I have to go into the office (I'm one of 2 people in my office that are wearing masks). My father-in-law had to get an emergency medical procedure last week, thankfully he was able to get a bed. We've been extra conservative about bringing home the plague the last few weeks since I'm moving my daughter to college in New York tomorrow, and if she were to test positive it would make her miss all of the orientation and welcome activities.
After this trip, the wife and I are going to have to figure out our risk tolerance. The prevailing feeling amongst my social circle is that Covid for vaccinated people is like the flu, and you wouldn't quarantine simply because it's flu season. And most are basically at the point of saying "fuck the unvaccinated." Mind you, they also don't have young children. I'm not sure I agree, and I'm cognizant of spreading the virus even if I'm not personally at risk. But I also don't want to needlessly damage my mental health by being overly cautious.

I would say fuck the voluntarily unvaccinated but it seems more accurate to say they're fucking us.

This data helps to better describe the unvaccinated:
fivethirtyeight.com/features/unvaccinated-america-in-5-charts/

I like how some of the data is presented here usafacts.org/visualizations/covid-vaccine-tracker-states/

which I believe is a fairly honest and accurate version of the data as we know it.

The key here is the age of the vaccinated (or not). It has a nice smooth curve upward as you get older, which nicely falls in line with personal risk from Covid. That is the most important trend line for me, because that not only shows how the most affected populations as being protected, but also can help drive the cultural intelligence of how to motivate unvaccinated people into becoming vaccinated.

This thread demonstrates the "all stick" method, essentially insulting and attempting to shame as a means of forcing compliance. However, once you realize the unvaccinated are predominately younger but also still represent a general cross section of americans distributed across the entire country, this tactic is doomed to failure. It doesn't account for a rural farm family that sees like 5 people a month, western enclaves that highly value independence and personal risk (even if you disagree, insulting them just digs their heels in harder), substantial minority populations with their own reasons (although some groups like asians [if you take them as a monolithic block] and native americans show that vax rates are not universally lower just because you are not white) and younger people who, when healthy and not obese, really don't have a lot of personal risk from Covid. Each of these groups ought to be teased out of the whole and reasoned with on their terms, in a language they understand and respect. This is the cornerstone of cultural intelligence.

"Joking" that those idiots should be thrown into the sun isn't gonna convince anyone. I doubt folks here can imagine using language like that to describe any other population over an issue either, or at least certainly wouldn't appreciate being on the receiving end of such cyberbullying. Heck, just hand over a $100 bill with each vaccine, that would probably end the problem right there at far less cost than trying to establish and enforce vaccine passports and the like. We've certainly blown far more money for far less societal benefit.

jason10mm wrote: I doubt folks here can imagine using language like that to describe any other population over an issue either, or at least certainly wouldn't appreciate being on the receiving end of such cyberbullying.

jason10mm wrote: Heck, just hand over a $100 bill with each vaccine, that would probably end the problem right there at far less cost than trying to establish and enforce vaccine passports and the like. We've certainly blown far more money for far less societal benefit.

That's being done in plenty of places and it's not changing things very much at all. States are doing lotteries too. And there's outreach to community leaders across all parts of the spectrum. This stuff doesn't get very much press because it's all boots-on-the-ground kinds of things, flies under the radar. It is having some effect, but all the low-hanging fruit is gone. There is an intractable minority who are not going to be convinced ever.

Regarding the Black and Latino communities (and other communities), yeah, you can look at their reluctance and play what-aboutism with it. But they aren't standing in front of state capitols hollering about how wearing a mask is a violation of their civil rights, at least I haven't seen it if they are. I appreciate some citizens don't want to receive a vaccination, for whatever reason, and that sucks. But that bullying you speak about is front and center on the far side of this argument as well. In two of the most infected states in the country you have governors using that energy solely to advance their career. A significant enough minority of one party is effectively wagging the dog in some regions of the country. That's a bigger problem. Unfortunately it's spilled into public health this time.

I'll just mention that their de facto leader has clearly encouraged them to get vaccinated.

ubarose wrote: . . . are hesitant because the vaccines haven't yet received full FDA approval.

I am very much hoping that's the case, but my concern is that that's just a convenient rebuttal when they're asked. When it's removed they'll move on to rebuttal reason number 2.

Truth be told, the number of vaccines distributed in the deep south have been up for the last four weeks. People do respond when the risk is perceived as close and real. Given that those that get the virus develop some level of immunity as well the overall resistance to infection is increasing.

Full FDA approval is critical for workplace vaccine mandates, particularly for healthcare and education. I certainly get a ton of vaccines required by my job. Irks me though that we can check chickenpox antibodies to "get credit" for that one but won't do the same for covid.

Assuming the vaccine reactions continue to escalate with each dose, that fall booster round for everyone is gonna be a doozy as well. This is just an unpleasant vaccine to get for a lot of folks, resistance to it is going to be strong every time I think. Remember, only like 40-50% of folks get the flu shot, there are PENTY of adults that think they are tougher than an infection. I'm sure tetanus boosters, pneumococcal vaccines, etc are equally as limited in scope.

Younger folk seem to be embracing the HPV vaccine about like they do the covid vaccine and that has certainly shown an effect. It's all about the messaging I suppose. Granted, that is primarily a pediatric vaccine and the lethality is, in this country at least, far lower, so maybe it gets exempted from the "unvaccinated people are killing us with their contagious disease so let's throw them into the sun" rhetoric

www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db354-h.pdf
www.cdc.gov/hpv/partners/outreach-hcp/hpv-coverage.html
www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/articl...014%20more%20rows%20

My point being is that most vaccines have like a 50% push rate, for a variety of reasons, outside of some long term exceptionally well publicized ones that took decades for broad acceptance. Covid is no exception. Expecting 90% compliance or whatever right out of the gate was never really a realistic option. But the most vulnerable to seem to be approaching that just on a voluntary basis which is reassuring.

jason10mm wrote: Full FDA approval is critical for workplace vaccine mandates, particularly for healthcare and education.

Not for most workplaces. Most states now have at-will employment, which means that an employer can terminate an employee for any reason without warning, as long as the reason is not illegal or discriminatory. An employer can certainly set a safety rule and then terminate an employee for not complying with that safety rule.

www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and...-19-vaccination.aspx

jason10mm wrote: Irks me though that we can check chickenpox antibodies to "get credit" for that one but won't do the same for covid.

No one should use the fact that they got COVID as a reason to not get the free vaccine. We have seen that folks who had long COVID with lasting symptoms had those disappear or lessen after they got the vaccine. I don't think we will ever know the full long term effects of a virus such as this.

It is funny that you mention chicken pox as an example of a reason to not take the vaccine. Chicken pox and Shingles both come from the same virus, you just get Shingles later in life if you had Chicken Pox when you were younger. There are vaccines you can take to prevent Shingles. I suspect with the mRNA vaccines you are very likely to prevent future complications. All for free!

At least the one study about vaccines limiting "long covid" I read about 30% had a reduction in symptoms, and I think 10-30% had an exacerbation in symptoms. Kinda modules the Hawthorne effect if anything since I'm not aware of any measurable way to evaluate " long covid". I only know 1 person with prolonged symptoms (loss of taste) and the vaccine did not help.

I don't think fda approval is required for an employer to mandate the vaccine in some places, but it certainly helps sell it. And every place I've worked usually has some sort of exemption. So even they don't get to 100%. I think for flu we peter out at 85%.

Then you have Stanford (I think) mandating regular covid testing even for vaccinated employees. This feels like 1 step forward, 2 steps back.