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× A place to talk about stuff that doesn't belong anywhere else.

Minneapolis is a Warzone

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03 Jun 2020 05:38 - 03 Jun 2020 05:46 #310901 by Erik Twice
Replied by Erik Twice on topic Minneapolis is a Warzone
There's still millions of people who see police cars run over people and smile ready to take Trump's spot if he goes away.

Andi Lennon wrote: One of the things that really rankles with me is the complicit, passive and dehumanising language used by a lot of the media covering this. The phrase "black man dies in police custody" is utterly bereft of detail, context or humanity. It needs to read "George Floyd murdered by police".


What I find particularly telling about this is the implicit idea that dying "in police custody" is somehow normal. There's the subtext that it happens just like one might die from complications in a hospital.
Last edit: 03 Jun 2020 05:46 by Erik Twice.
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03 Jun 2020 06:31 #310902 by mtagge
Replied by mtagge on topic Minneapolis is a Warzone

dysjunct wrote: One of the rare political positions I hold that unites in opposition both my right-wing family (mostly law enforcement) and my left-wing in-laws (mostly teachers) is that I think public employee unions ought to be abolished. I think they are anti-democratic. You already get to vote for the person who best represents your interests, and then you go organize against them anyway? Fuck that.

I would say it is a bit more nuanced than that. I have a union in the Foreign Service. It might be a bit different because the head of our organization and all the leadership is political appointees. And there are a lot of fuckstick ambassadors, especially lately. What my "union" does is get a seat at the table, provides classified services (listing of where you can rent or buy a house, retirement info), provides legal aid to those who have actions taken against them, and lobbies for issues that are important to the members to both leadership and Congress. However we have a clear "leadership"/rank and file divide. When you hit Senior Foreign Service or if you are a political appointee you do not fall under the union.

Then again once we hit a certain rank and position we are all but required to have personal liability insurance in case we are sued. Would that not be the better solution for the police?
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03 Jun 2020 08:52 #310903 by n815e
Replied by n815e on topic Minneapolis is a Warzone

bfkiller wrote: There's still Jr.


It’s true that we will never be rid of the Trumps.

But Eric and Jr. are not up to the task. Jr. will be a loudmouth like his dad, but with even less charisma.

Ivanka will try to become president.
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03 Jun 2020 12:00 - 03 Jun 2020 13:24 #310906 by mezike
Replied by mezike on topic Minneapolis is a Warzone
eh, my comment was facetious and doesn’t belong in this discussion, please delete.

Black lives matter, stupid snarks at nepotism do not.
Last edit: 03 Jun 2020 13:24 by mezike.

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03 Jun 2020 12:16 #310907 by dysjunct
Replied by dysjunct on topic Minneapolis is a Warzone

mtagge wrote:

dysjunct wrote: One of the rare political positions I hold that unites in opposition both my right-wing family (mostly law enforcement) and my left-wing in-laws (mostly teachers) is that I think public employee unions ought to be abolished. I think they are anti-democratic. You already get to vote for the person who best represents your interests, and then you go organize against them anyway? Fuck that.

I would say it is a bit more nuanced than that. I have a union in the Foreign Service. It might be a bit different because the head of our organization and all the leadership is political appointees. And there are a lot of fuckstick ambassadors, especially lately. What my "union" does is get a seat at the table, provides classified services (listing of where you can rent or buy a house, retirement info), provides legal aid to those who have actions taken against them, and lobbies for issues that are important to the members to both leadership and Congress. However we have a clear "leadership"/rank and file divide. When you hit Senior Foreign Service or if you are a political appointee you do not fall under the union.

Then again once we hit a certain rank and position we are all but required to have personal liability insurance in case we are sued. Would that not be the better solution for the police?


I appreciate the response and I apologize if my earlier post made it sound like every public union member is a grifter out to abuse the public trust or something.

I don't know if I'm completely sold on the idea but I will think about it. For the police, I think getting rid of qualified immunity would be a major first step. Or maybe it's a cultural problem in police unions specifically. They always seem to fight a lot harder to protect the bad apples than to protect whistleblowers.
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03 Jun 2020 13:22 #310908 by Joebot
Replied by Joebot on topic Minneapolis is a Warzone

dysjunct wrote: I don't know if I'm completely sold on the idea but I will think about it. For the police, I think getting rid of qualified immunity would be a major first step. Or maybe it's a cultural problem in police unions specifically. They always seem to fight a lot harder to protect the bad apples than to protect whistleblowers.


It sure seems like police unions aren't traditional unions in the way we normally think of the term. They're not fighting for benefits and overtime pay and workplace safely. Their primary focus is to protect their own from all criticism or consequence. The police union will always "circle the wagons" to protect their own, and that is a huge problem.

I'm going to a BLM rally / protest in my suburb tomorrow afternoon. My first ever protest. Anybody got any advice or tips?
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03 Jun 2020 13:46 #310909 by RobertB
Replied by RobertB on topic Minneapolis is a Warzone

Joebot wrote: I'm going to a BLM rally / protest in my suburb tomorrow afternoon. My first ever protest. Anybody got any advice or tips?

Some secondhand advice that I saw a while back:
  • Make sure that you arrange to check in with someone, at a specific time. Tell them you're serious, and to start looking for you if they don't hear from you or can't get hold of you.
  • Take a bottle of water. Maybe two. One to stay hydrated, one for just in case of tear gas, etc.
  • Take a bandanna or buff. Not just for Covid, but for tear gas, pepper spray, whatever.
  • Pay attention to your gut. If stuff doesn't look or feel right, feel free to get out of there.
  • If you're recording, try to have video pushed to the cloud in realtime.
  • Have your contact numbers handy. A lawyer's phone number might be nice too.
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03 Jun 2020 13:48 #310910 by Nodens
Replied by Nodens on topic Minneapolis is a Warzone
Also, ideally don't go alone. Bring a friend, watch out for each other.
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03 Jun 2020 17:31 #310912 by jeb
Replied by jeb on topic Minneapolis is a Warzone

Joebot wrote: I'm going to a BLM rally / protest in my suburb tomorrow afternoon. My first ever protest. Anybody got any advice or tips?

Good, thanks.
  • Wear pants and long sleeves.
  • Bring a backpack
  • :side: water to drink
  • :side: water to pour on eyes
  • :side: small first aid kit
  • :side: snacks
  • :side: sunblock
  • bring ID
  • bring a phone, read up on how to lock it securely
  • write atty/bail fund number on your arm
  • know your police procedure*
  • I am white, so I also remember that I am a guest of the BLM movement. Any media that wants to speak to me should be politely directed to the voices of PoC.

If shit is going to go down
  • have an escape route planned; no excuse for kettling
  • don't be afraid to leave if you get gassed or injured
  • tear gas is a powder dispersed by a blast, it's important to minimize exposure, it can burn skin, eyes, and lungs, get to high ground, it settles
  • pepper spray/mace is a liquid oil sprayed with a propellant, it can be wiped off with wipes, soaps, and other oils
  • move backpack to your chest if that's where the cops are, try to keep it between you and their projectiles

*"Am I being detained?" If no, leave. If yes, state:
"I am invoking my right to an attorney. I do not consent to searches."
THEN SHUT UP.
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03 Jun 2020 17:42 #310913 by RobertB
Replied by RobertB on topic Minneapolis is a Warzone
Personal experience from my 'Basic Training in the summer' days - jeb is right about tear gas. CS will burn your skin wherever you sweat, especially where your clothes rub your sweaty skin. It's not permanent, and leaves no blisters or anything, but it smarts like crazy. Let's hope Joebot doesn't find out. :)
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04 Jun 2020 00:37 #310917 by Ancient_of_MuMu
This is so fucking scary. In Oz we just rock up to protests on a whim with no fear and no planning.

Our police are problematic, but it just isn't anywhere near the same scale.
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04 Jun 2020 02:32 #310918 by mc
Replied by mc on topic Minneapolis is a Warzone
I agree. It does depend a little on the protest though. And hell, I got pepper sprayed at the football a couple of years ago. But, generally yeah. That kind of advice is not a usual requirement.
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04 Jun 2020 11:50 #310921 by dysjunct
Replied by dysjunct on topic Minneapolis is a Warzone

Joebot wrote:

dysjunct wrote: I don't know if I'm completely sold on the idea but I will think about it. For the police, I think getting rid of qualified immunity would be a major first step. Or maybe it's a cultural problem in police unions specifically. They always seem to fight a lot harder to protect the bad apples than to protect whistleblowers.


It sure seems like police unions aren't traditional unions in the way we normally think of the term. They're not fighting for benefits and overtime pay and workplace safely. Their primary focus is to protect their own from all criticism or consequence. The police union will always "circle the wagons" to protect their own, and that is a huge problem.


So, in an odd coincidence, the Indicator podcast covered an upcoming paper which looks into any relationship between police violence and police collective bargaining:

www.npr.org/2020/06/03/869176943/police-...-and-civilian-deaths

The paper found an overwhelming relationship between the two — as soon as police started getting collective bargaining rights, the amount of police killings spiked sharply upwards. Especially against minorities.

I'm going to a BLM rally / protest in my suburb tomorrow afternoon. My first ever protest. Anybody got any advice or tips?


Good luck and stay safe!
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04 Jun 2020 14:27 #310925 by ubarose
Replied by ubarose on topic Minneapolis is a Warzone
Thank you Jeb. Good list. You might want to add work gloves to protect your hands.

Something that I told my daughter, that I assume everyone here knows, but may be worth mentioning is that a Protest is a very different thing than a March.

Marches are nice organized walks with city permits and appropriate fees paid. Where you assemble and the route you take is prearranged and blocked off appropriately by the city. At the end of the day you get a little news coverage and go home with a little sunburn and maybe a blister on your heel.

Protests are acts of civil disobedience. You are breaking the law. At the very least you are violating some city ordinance or other regarding blocking traffic, number of people assembled, disturbing the peace etc. How it goes, even with a peaceful, well controlled protest, entirely depends upon how the city and the police handle it.
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05 Jun 2020 06:31 #310942 by mtagge
Replied by mtagge on topic Minneapolis is a Warzone

dysjunct wrote: It sure seems like police unions aren't traditional unions in the way we normally think of the term. They're not fighting for benefits and overtime pay and workplace safely. Their primary focus is to protect their own from all criticism or consequence. The police union will always "circle the wagons" to protect their own, and that is a huge problem.

I think the other thing that police unions do (sadly many other state level public unions also do) is lobby for and against candidates. So a candidate suggests that maybe the PD doesn't need to buy those five hand-me-down military grade vehicles, and the police union does a fund raiser and makes sure they do not get elected. Public unions should be apolitical and no monies from them should be used to favor one candidate over another.

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