Barnes on Games: Champions of Midgard and Survive! Space Attack! in Review, Cthulhu Wars, Thunderbirds, new VPG titles

I'm still very torn about buying Cthulhu Wars. More than two years ago, I was actually serious struggling with whether or not to Kickstart CW, despite being about 95% certain that I was going to lose my job soon. IIRC, I had determined that if I was going to Kickstart it, I was likely to spend something like $280, in order to get the base game plus many of the bonus factions and dudes. I already knew that Sandy Peterson had done great work over a long period of time with the Call of Cthulhu rpg, but I just wasn't certain how much of that ability would carry over to a board game.

Pessimism won that day, and I decided to not Kickstart CW. And that turned out to be the right decision for me. I was unemployed for over nine months, and the take home pay on my new job has been $1,000 less per month. I have even been covertly looking for a better job for the last seven months, and still haven't gotten an offer, despite my significant experience in my field. Even at the Kickstart stage, Peterson and others were publicly comparing the game to Chaos in the Old World, so I figured that I would be better off just buying that some day instead of CW. I knew several local players that enjoyed CitOW, but I couldn't be sure if I would ever get CW on the table enough to pay for itself.

So it is galling and annoying to hear that CW turns out to be a great game that might just be worth spending $200 on, but that I would still ultimately want to pay even more to get some of those bonus boards and factions and stuff to extend the replay value. Fortunately, CW is now available retail, and probably the bonus material will end up in greater distribution as well. But there is still no way that I am spending that amount of money until my career gets back on track. That could be weeks, months, or possibly never.

SuperflyTNT wrote:

Da Bid Dabid wrote:

Ancient_of_MuMu wrote:

Da Bid Dabid wrote:

Michael Barnes wrote: TL;DR- I love the game, bottom line. Regardless of everything else.

TL;DR - "I'm a huge hypocrite"

Weirdly I don't see this one as hypocrisy. The one thing that I think Barnes has been relatively consistent on over the last few years is trying to be open minded and admitting that a game is good regardless of theme/cost/etc. I think that he likes Cthulhu Wars in spite of all the warning flags on it (and off the top of my head other games that fit this category are Earth Reborn (graphic design) and Argent: The Consortium (fonts), plus the recent Knizia love).

I was mostly taking a pot shot for fun... but these posts aren't even a year old.
Exhibit 1 & Exhibit 2
I'd say that constitutes more of a philosophical opposition, not a simple warning flag. Anyway I'm glad he's back on being a whore for minis, definitely a small step in the right direction of more closely matching my (obviously correct and superior) tastes in games.

I think if one thing comes from this, I hope it is that Mike will shut his suck about Kickstarter being the bane of all humanity. I agreed initially, but Kickstarter is now the largest publisher (of sorts) of games on the market.

Isn't that pretty much what he was afraid was going to happen? I certainly don't see that as being a good thing.

Mike,

Thanks for the write up on Survive: Space Attack!

Our main goal/fear about taking on this project was not to fuck it up. I have tremendous respect for Survive, and wanted to build on that.

After working on this I have an even deeper appreciation for the original design. We spent a lot of time looking for ways we could improve it, but as we tinkered with various changes we discovered just how many subtle design details are in the original that make it work so well.

One of these days I'd like to write up a case study on it, to bring out those details.

Geoff

repoman wrote: The resemblance to CitOW is not just mild. It's quite strong. Strong enough that I would call it not inspired by but derivative of that game. And it is a weaker game overall.
I'd even go so far as to call it dumbed down. It's Chaos for people that don't like to put as much thought into their game play.

I tend to agree that it's pretty close to CitOW but I don't agree at all with most of what you're saying. I think it is a different game at its core, jus the veneer and macro level structure mimics Chaos.

I don't feel it's dumbed down, I do feel it's much more streamlined. That's not the same thing at all.

I think Chaos is probably a slightly better game but I think CW is more empowering. That toy-like feeling of slamming down a big god just isn't there in Chaos. I'd love to actually field Khorne, jesus.


Pete - you mention it probably cost $35. You do realize games tend to cost 1/4th of the MSRP roughly, right? That's industry standard (and for good reason).

I'll bet it's closer to $50 with the extreme cost to ship it which would be right in line. Such huge miniature molds are crazy expensive. It was also printed by Panda which is not a cheaper printer at all.

charlest wrote: Pete - you mention it probably cost $35. You do realize games tend to cost 1/4th of the MSRP roughly, right? That's industry standard (and for good reason). I'll bet it's closer to $50 with the extreme cost to ship it which would be right in line. Such huge miniature molds are crazy expensive. It was also printed by Panda which is not a cheaper printer at all.

You should remember that I have spent the last 22 years in manufacturing and distribution. Shipping from Asia is about 12 cents a pound, depending on season. Sometimes it's a little cheaper. At 11 pounds, freight is probably a buck and a quarter per unit, give or take. Especially with square boxes in square cartons on pallets, which this most assuredly was.

I do realize that 0.25% retail is the "standard" cost structure for board games in the US, but I also know that Kickstarter has broken these rules in large part because a crucial aspect of the supply chain has been removed: distribution. When you sell direct, the expectation is that the consumer will get a break because the producer isn't giving up 65% discounts to distribution or 50% discounts to retail. But no, with Kickstarter, you don't get that. What you get is (for producers) the best of all worlds: the client pays everything up front, as if it's a custom order, then you can deliver whenever you feel like it, and you don't have to give a discount to the consumer! So, no capitalization problems, no fixed delivery deadline, and you get to keep a shitload of profit from your first lot. Really, it could be argued that backers pay all the costs and allow the game to be made, which then goes to distribution and retail at a lower price than the investor-backer paid in the first place. It's an incredibly lopsided deal.

So, this game should've been $75 had they wanted 100% return on investment, more or less, assuming about a 37.50$ cost.

This is the ONE reason that Kickstarter pisses me off. Backers should get a discount for being in investor class, the ones taking the risk. Fuck stretch goals - that is a weak ass way for manufacturers to pretend to give backers more but, really, the backers are paying more than retail charges, so there's no discount.

/end rant about people being stupid and not understanding supply chain

As an actual data point, most games (especially big ones like CW) are shipped in a full 40' container, where the weight doesn't come into play unless you're shipping a container full of bricks.

Survive: Space Attack fits 8.316 copies per container, palletized. Containers from China typically cost $4,000 - $5,000 depending on how much you ship, etc. So it's about $0.50 in freight per unit.

I haven't seen the CW box, but I would guess it's 2-3 times the size of SSA, putting it at $1.00 - $1.50, which is in line with Pete's estimate.

bfkiller wrote: Isn't that pretty much what he was afraid was going to happen? I certainly don't see that as being a good thing.

Why?

I see it as an awesome marketplace. The Cult of the New gets to pay all the up front costs to have all kinds of different games produced by all kinds of different people with all kinds of different ideas. I mean, it doesn't get better than that, for non-crazy consumers. We get to sit back and wait a year for the game to hit retail, and we get it cheaper than the original backers. More importantly, we get the benefit of a lot of opinions and tons of press coverage.

Sure, there's a LOT of chaff, but one guy's chaff is another guy's wheat. For every hundred Miskatonic School For Girls games, there's maybe five Cthulhu Wars. I'd rather wade through the rubbish to get to the gems that would not otherwise be made, personally. Plus, every single F:ATtie can design a game and have it made if they choose to, which never could've happened 10 years ago. I mean, the opportunities are tremendous. I'm all about giving people opportunities, because occasionally, you'll be pleasantly surprised. Xia, Cthulhu Wars, Dwarven Forge Dwarvenite, Reaper Bones....all things that may not have existed without the crowdfunding model.

It's a net good, but consumers just need to know how to use it.

I'm with ya, but by shipping I more meant the cost for Petersen games to ship to backers. Shipping was free in the first Kickstarter I believe.

You're correct about cutting out middle man and earning higher margins, but it's not the standard on KS at all to discount. Rather, all that extra profit tends to go towards fueling the entire print run, leaving post-KS sales as pure profit.

This is why Stretch goals are so important for the large projects, to get that cost for the consumer down to a low level from a perception stand point. Blood Rage was only slightly cheaper on KS, but it came with a large amount of expansion content that would cost you big dollars at retail.

It's kind of similar to discounting off the single game's price but they make you chip in for a higher dollar total and get more stuff instead. This reduces their price per unit and allows them to print more probably.

It's not a Lamborghini or a Toyota. It's a Caprice Classic with 28" rims, spinners and a trunk sized subwoofer. That is to say, it's an amazing toy for someone who loves it, but never a rational purchase.

Badonkadonk.

engelstein wrote: As an actual data point, most games (especially big ones like CW) are shipped in a full 40' container, where the weight doesn't come into play unless you're shipping a container full of bricks.

Survive: Space Attack fits 8.316 copies per container, palletized. Containers from China typically cost $4,000 - $5,000 depending on how much you ship, etc. So it's about $0.50 in freight per unit.

I haven't seen the CW box, but I would guess it's 2-3 times the size of SSA, putting it at $1.00 - $1.50, which is in line with Pete's estimate.

I used to move several million pounds of ocean freight, and yes, you're right - container (40-45') is the way these things are shipped. But in my business I break everything down to the pound to determine cost. That's why I used that metric, because that's the one that I am most familiar with.

Is there a good middle path through CW between base game only and all in? My guess, reading around the KS and on BGG, was that it'd make most sense to get base plus factions first, and I'd maybe think of going with the wave 1 factions in this case (so $350 for base plus four additional factions), and it seems like it might be possible to get the base game more or less immediately and then wait-and-see on add-ons till the pledge manager in (I think) January. Part of the first-world frustration with this project is the difficulty of predicting what, if anything much, will be available post-KS even from the publishers' website. (I'm guessing there'll actually be a third wave at some point, or a third KS anyway, so I'm not that worried about missing out on something critical.)

Edit: Looks like the base game shipping is more like within a two-month window after the campaign ends rather than what I took "immediately" to mean. But there are still CW copies around $150, $160 in the supply chain.

I think the plan is to have much of this available in full retail, that's one of the goals of Onslaught 2. I think we'll see the additional factions and neutral monsters hit retail over the next couple years.

I think a good "not crazy" buy would be the core, one (maybe two) factions, the High Priests, and one map (probably Yuggoth or Primeval since Dreamlands has special monsters sold separately). The maps all support up to five players, so you could have up to five (or six) to choose from and not have four others sitting in the box every game. UNLESS you're going to be playing 6-8 players, that dramatically changes the equation. The high priests seem like a good inexpensive add.

The other stuff- the GOO packs, the Ramsey Campbell stuff and all- looks awesome but I feel like that is definitely more into optional content. The cosmetic add-ons like the gates are nice, but ultimately not part of a "middle path" option I don't think.

I would say that most likely, the core game and the main factions, probably the 2-5 player maps will be at retail. Everything else will likely be from them or maybe not available beyond an initial print run.

Another option is to get a used copy of the core and just back a dollar and use the pledge manager to get what you want in January. I have a $1 pledge in there just in case I get crazy.

I'm going after 2 factions, the high priests, and the plastic gates, because plastics. Still not sure which factions, but I think Tcho Tcho and Sleeper are the most interesting.

Those do look the most interesting Pete. Sleeper can pass for 0 power and delay his turn (due to lethargy) and Tcho Tcho forms symbiotic relationships with other players so you can benefit from their actions.