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Lipstick and a Pig - Pandemic Review

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16 Dec 2015 09:18 #217452 by Shellhead
Scrooge-like Euro hater here. I tried Pandemic, and found it to be a themeless piece of crap waste of my time. I thought that this Legacy version might have been a chance to attach actual theme and narrative to the boring mechanics and transcend into actual entertainment, but it sounds like that isn't the case. Actually the worst knock that I've heard against Pandemic Legacy is that it doesn't really matter if you win or lose individual games, the story continues on track either way.

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16 Dec 2015 09:36 #217454 by Disgustipater
Not that BGG ratings are a meaningful metric in any way, but I find it amusing that Pandemic Legacy is the #1 game in the Strategy Board Game ranking, recently usurping Twilight Struggle's spot.
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16 Dec 2015 10:27 #217460 by OldHippy
With all the fuss over on BGG about this game the one thing I will say about it is that I'm happy to see Rob have such success and I'm happy that the legacy idea is really clicking with gamers because I do think that is some pretty fucking awesome lipstick.

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16 Dec 2015 11:58 #217466 by Unicron
Unlike many here, I’m not opposed to cooperative designs, but I think the caveat is always going to be that the game in question needs to grant individual players a fair amount of agency. Because Pandemic only grants limited agency to the collective, it doesn’t spare much to the individual. I think original recipe Pandemic is a fine solitaire game where one can control multiple pawns/hands of cards to beat the system, but as a play experience, it’s just about optimizing activity/barking orders at your fellow players until a random card draw foils your strategy. I think the players that are desperate for a narrative and great anecdotal gaming experiences should just play better games. If you’re looking for a rich 60-minute-or-less game that you’ll be talking of for years to come, you probably won’t find it. If you’re looking to play 12 sessions of something over the next year for that experience, there are still a ton of better RPG’s or board games worth exploring.

As for the “legacy” component, many times I’m playing games, someone spills their beer. From now on, I’ll shout “LEGACY!” when this occurs
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16 Dec 2015 12:25 - 16 Dec 2015 12:30 #217472 by Jexik
I really enjoyed Risk Legacy. I've been playing Pandemic with my girlfriend (and occasionally her parents) over the last couple months. We're looking forward to playing P:L.

But when I was in middle and early high school I preferred the linear JRPGs to the aimless bioware/bethesda games. I like there to be a story defined by an author. There can still be interesting player-driven moments in games like this in addition to the scripted revelations. Rob looks at these legacy titles almost like he's writing a TV show over 13 episodes that happens to have a game attached to it.

Really, it brings campaigns to the masses without making people get afraid of the idea of roleplaying as a half goblin prostitute.
Last edit: 16 Dec 2015 12:30 by Jexik.
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16 Dec 2015 14:48 #217493 by Ska_baron
Jexik nailed the appeal - so if that doesnt sound fun to you, then of course you won't like it. Having only played Risk: Legacy and Classic Pandemic, and loving both, I'd be all over this if I had dedicated folks/time.

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16 Dec 2015 15:06 #217500 by boothwah
Great article Egg. Good read. Please keep writing.
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16 Dec 2015 16:45 #217514 by scissors
the game may very well may suffer from the shortcomings listed, but I intend to actually play the game before I make up my mind.

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16 Dec 2015 17:17 #217519 by Ancient_of_MuMu
There is one important difference between Pandemic and Pandemic Legacy that many may be underestimating. The nature of the Legacy system means that there is no longer one true path to victory. In Pandemic you can overlook a few things that make the situation worse as long as they won't stop you winning. Having a few extra outbreaks is irrelevant if you know there can't be enough to stop you winning, but now you have to weigh up the consequences of all those minor losses, as they can come to be much more important in the context of the bigger picture. So the alpha dog problem is reduced down to a more Arkham Horror like level from the extreme situation that is present in base Pandemic.

There are a few reasons why most people rate Pandemic Legacy 2 to 3 ratings points out of 10 higher than Pandemic:
1) Alpha Dog problem reduced
2) More theme
3) More complexity
4) Very solid campaign system

Unless your main reason that you don't want to try Pandemic Legacy is that you fundamentally don't like Co-ops because you have to crush someone else to enjoy life it is worth considering playing, if only to see how well implemented the game is as a campaign compared to every other board game campaign. There are a lot of people who hate Pandemic and love Pandemic Legacy.
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16 Dec 2015 17:22 #217521 by OldHippy

Ancient_of_MuMu wrote: Unless your main reason that you don't want to try Pandemic Legacy is that you fundamentally don't like Co-ops because you have to crush someone else to enjoy life...


I keep seeing this idea being bandied about on the Fort... I don't know why people feel the need to assume that anyone who doesn't like co-ops is such a monstrous asshole but it is entirely unfair and completely ignores several very valid reasons that have nothing to do with this.
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16 Dec 2015 17:23 #217523 by DukeofChutney

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16 Dec 2015 17:29 #217526 by Black Barney

DukeofChutney wrote: I agree


Christ, what an asshole


/ doesn't like co-ops either
// why aren't we talking about Star Wars
/// booth is better at this than me
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16 Dec 2015 17:58 #217532 by Ancient_of_MuMu

JonJacob wrote:

Ancient_of_MuMu wrote: Unless your main reason that you don't want to try Pandemic Legacy is that you fundamentally don't like Co-ops because you have to crush someone else to enjoy life...


I keep seeing this idea being bandied about on the Fort... I don't know why people feel the need to assume that anyone who doesn't like co-ops is such a monstrous asshole but it is entirely unfair and completely ignores several very valid reasons that have nothing to do with this.

As I was writing that, I was trying to think of why people fundamentally don't like co-ops and there only seem to be the same few reasons, but all are to do with implementation which could change in the right game rather than the fact that it is a co-op (generally the two I see most often are alpha dog and any AI not as being as clever as a person). If the problem couldn't be fixed in the right implementation, then it does come down to the fact that you feel the need to compete against others rather than work together as a team.

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16 Dec 2015 17:59 #217533 by Shellhead
Some of my favorite games are co-ops. Pandemic is one of my least favorite games.
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16 Dec 2015 18:20 #217535 by OldHippy

Ancient_of_MuMu wrote:

JonJacob wrote:

Ancient_of_MuMu wrote: Unless your main reason that you don't want to try Pandemic Legacy is that you fundamentally don't like Co-ops because you have to crush someone else to enjoy life...


I keep seeing this idea being bandied about on the Fort... I don't know why people feel the need to assume that anyone who doesn't like co-ops is such a monstrous asshole but it is entirely unfair and completely ignores several very valid reasons that have nothing to do with this.

As I was writing that, I was trying to think of why people fundamentally don't like co-ops and there only seem to be the same few reasons, but all are to do with implementation which could change in the right game rather than the fact that it is a co-op (generally the two I see most often are alpha dog and any AI not as being as clever as a person). If the problem couldn't be fixed in the right implementation, then it does come down to the fact that you feel the need to compete against others rather than work together as a team.


I can't really answer because I don't mind co-ops. But of the people I play with that don't like them it's mainly the AI issue (the same issue is sometimes stated as 'too puzzle like') but even if we are playing a competitive DoaM, let's say, most people won't be 'crushing' anyone. They will most likely lose. So it's not about crushing people at all because we do have fun playing competitive games, in which by default most of us will lose. Everyone taking part in a competitive game has to come to terms with that.

I could, very well, state it the opposite way. There is one guy I play with, great dude, but he can't stand losing and will turn into a whiny bitch sometimes if he loses. With him I pretty much always play co-ops because it's more fun that way. I won't stop being his friend because I love the guy but I avoid introducing him to games where I feel his bad side might become exposed. So co-op's it is.

So... are all co-op fans whiny bitches who can't stand losing to other people? No, obviously not. We are more complex than that.

I think the major flaw with your line of thought is that there should be a reason that people 'fundamentally don't like co-ops' - there doesn't need to be a fundamental reason behind it.

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