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31 May 2018 14:33 #274399 by Jackwraith
Whichwood? was created by Jackwraith

A week after the nerfs to free up the meta, Hearthstone still mostly plays without the latest set.

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01 Jun 2018 04:48 #274400 by Matt Thrower
Replied by Matt Thrower on topic Whichwood?
It doesn't entirely obviate your point, but I feel it's worth bearing in mind that in a lot of the decks that run one Witchwood card, that card is Genn or Baku. That means every card in the rest of the deck is built around that single inclusion. So it's perhaps not entirely fair to judge it a failure just because of the low number of cards seeing play: it's proved transformative, nevertheless.

It strikes me that Genn and Baku might, in fact, be partly to blame for the dearth of other Witchwood cards. Running either literally halves the number of cards available to you: including the Witchwood selection. So if you run Even or Odd, chances are you won't run any/many other Witchwood cards simply on statistical terms. It could be the very success of this mechanic has seen the expansion shooting itself in the foot?
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01 Jun 2018 08:03 #274406 by Jackwraith
Replied by Jackwraith on topic Whichwood?
Right. I tried to emphasize that to some degree, in that those two cards have, in fact, done exactly what Ben Brode wanted: created 18 new archetypes; some of them clearly more successful than others (Will Even Rogue ever be a thing? Dunno.) And it's certainly a fair point that the limitation introduced by them reduces the number of available cards across all sets, including Witchwood. I just thought it was notable because even deck types that have been in existence since the beta, like Zoo, aren't using Witchwood cards. Zoo lists have actually reverted to using Dark Iron Dwarf, instead of something new and interesting, like Ratcatcher. And lists that have only achieved popularity in the last couple years, like Token Druid, the best deck on ladder by some estimations, aren't using any at all.

I guess I should have pointed out that finding counters is a wholly organic process. Some older deck types are going to be more successful because the new ones are more vulnerable to the way the older one functions. If those deck types weren't given anything in the 10 class cards that Witchwood had room for, then that's how it is. But it struck me as funny because that seems to be a predominant theme: Most decks are excluding most Witchwood cards for whatever reason, whereas Kobolds cards were instantly employed in both new and old decks and have remained constant even through another expansion.

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01 Jun 2018 11:07 #274428 by SebastianBludd
Replied by SebastianBludd on topic Whichwood?
Great breakdown. You've been down on Even Shaman before, yet the data report says that it's a viable deck made possible by the Warlock nerfs. However, the way the deck functions is unchanged (i.e., a board of trash, oftentimes), so how does it win games?
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01 Jun 2018 11:53 #274435 by Jackwraith
Replied by Jackwraith on topic Whichwood?

I think the current version functions more like Zoo in that it's playing a bunch of things that are nominally considered "good stuff" but also have the ability to make favorable trades in true, Zoo fashion, ably assisted by being able to recover from a point of damage or having a 1/1 to follow up or being able to attack with the knowledge that the reprisal will be soaked up by a 0/2 Taunt. What sets it apart from Zoo is that there's more on the back end than just Doomguards.

# 2x (2) Dire Wolf Alpha
# 2x (2) Earthen Might
# 2x (2) Flametongue Totem
# 2x (2) Knife Juggler
# 2x (2) Murkspark Eel
# 2x (2) Primalfin Totem
# 1x (2) Vicious Scalehide
# 2x (4) Corpsetaker
# 2x (4) Fire Plume Phoenix
# 1x (4) Hex
# 2x (4) Saronite Chain Gang
# 1x (6) Argent Commander
# 2x (6) Fire Elemental
# 1x (6) Genn Greymane
# 1x (8) Al'Akir the Windlord
# 1x (8) Hagatha the Witch
# 1x (8) Kalimos, Primal Lord
# 1x (8) The Lich King
# 2x (10) Sea Giant

Similar to Zoo, the deck is half neutrals. Of course, Classic Zoo was predominantly neutrals with 6 demons thrown in, because Warlock's base minions are pretty poor outside of Flame Imp, Voidwalker, and Doomguard (the aforementioned six.) But, again, when you hit the late game, you're dropping hammers like Lich King, Al'Akir, and Kalimos that can have huge impact. Most Zoo decks generally relied on Warlock's drawing power to keep the stream of early- and mid-game minions coming even into the later stretch. You'll notice that, outside of the RNG factor of Earthen Might and Hagatha, this deck has ZERO draw, so you're definitely about winning the board without playing control. Hence, Zoo. Having six cards that damage any target on the way in is also key. I didn't think the Fire Elementals would be as good as they are, but they were once considered the best minion in the game for a reason. Note that the only elemental that carries that tribe's constraint is Kalimos. Both the Phoenixes and the FEs can operate independently, which has been my longstanding complaint about elementals. And, yes, only one Hex and no silence. With the lower population of Warlocks, it's not quite as essential, and between Dire Wolf, Flametongue, and all the targeted damage (plus lucky knives), you should be able to squeeze your way past most Taunt decks, although Hadronox can be a challenge (that's what the Hex is for, hopefully.)

Also note that 1/4 of your totem rolls is completely useless to you (Gotta maintain that identity!), unless you draw something applicable with Hagatha.
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01 Jun 2018 12:43 - 01 Jun 2018 12:46 #274437 by JMcL63
Replied by JMcL63 on topic Whichwood?
I can barely understand what Hearthstone is about, but it looks like the kind of active card play game I'm hoping Cultist Simulator - - will be. Great writing too Jackwraith.
Last edit: 01 Jun 2018 12:46 by JMcL63.
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01 Jun 2018 13:37 #274441 by Jackwraith
Replied by Jackwraith on topic Whichwood?
Thanks! I haven't chimed in yet on the Cultist thread, but I'll get there.

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03 Jun 2018 13:06 #274565 by MacDirk Diggler
Replied by MacDirk Diggler on topic Whichwood?
I mostly disagree if the premise is that Witchwood is a failure.
1. If I go with the assumption that there are only 10-15 really powerful cards in the set that broke into top tier existing meta decks.... than I feel like that is a better outcome than the top tier decks getting upgraded from insane cards that fit their archetype.

2. I perused the Witchwood set and I would say at quick glance 40-50% of the cards see play on ladder. Maybe not in top tier decks, but only a handful of decks can be top tier by definition.

3. The set changed the game and made new archetypes and that should probably be point #1

4. Some of the cards are not super competitive sure. But they are fun and offer some crazy new mechanics like dumping your hand and gaining opponents hand, Chamelios’ spy ability, getting Legendaries from bygone HS etc.

5. As you mentioned earlier, the ladder meta has never been more diverse.

I rate Witchwood a solid 7 on scale to 10
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