F#@k H.P. Lovecraft

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19 Oct 2018 21:57 - 19 Oct 2018 21:58 #283393 by Michael Barnes
Replied by Michael Barnes on topic F#@k H.P. Lovecraft
Slow down there boss. At no point am I suggesting anywhere in this, top to bottom, that anyone that like Lovecraft, plays Lovecraft games, or whatever is racist or supports racist ideology. The games are mostly innocuous regardless of their foundation. The ideologies are buried and it’s true- largely forgotten or plain unknown. You are jumping to a conclusion that I’m not making.

As stated, this is largely a personal decision that everybody has to make at some point with this kind of situation. Some, like Pete, feel it’s a minimal thing that is outweighed by the merit of the stories. Some think it’s completely irrelevant. Others have different levels of comfort with it. This is an area where I don’t think there is a right or wrong, but in my opinion and from my perspective it’s time to get over the HPL fixation due in large part to the racism and the fact that we are at a point in this hobby’s history where we NEED to distance it from this influence. And also because it’s just played out. We can do better, and we should demand better.

But you are absolutely correct, the average AH player may not have even read HPL. Or have any clue about the negative elements.
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19 Oct 2018 22:48 #283396 by ChristopherMD
Replied by ChristopherMD on topic F#@k H.P. Lovecraft
If there was a book called Guide to Overused Game Settings the Cthulhu mythos would be chapter two and chapter one would be WWII. Regardless of Lovecrafts racism I'd be cool if we never saw another game using either setting. We have plenty and there are other wars and miscellaneous horrors out there.
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19 Oct 2018 23:06 #283397 by jason10mm
Replied by jason10mm on topic F#@k H.P. Lovecraft
Well, if nothing else this thread should be convincing folks to petition Congress to stop extending copyright and open up the public domain to new stuff. Stuff made in the 40s and 50s ought to be free for use. Duck disney!
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19 Oct 2018 23:28 #283399 by Frohike
Replied by Frohike on topic F#@k H.P. Lovecraft
I just think HPL represents an... interesting confluence of racism and the horror of the abject Other. It's probably a point that's been made elsewhere.
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20 Oct 2018 00:07 #283400 by mtagge
Replied by mtagge on topic F#@k H.P. Lovecraft

Michael Barnes wrote: Slow down there boss. At no point am I suggesting anywhere in this, top to bottom, that anyone that like Lovecraft, plays Lovecraft games, or whatever is racist or supports racist ideology. The games are mostly innocuous regardless of their foundation. The ideologies are buried and it’s true- largely forgotten or plain unknown. You are jumping to a conclusion that I’m not making.

As stated, this is largely a personal decision that everybody has to make at some point with this kind of situation. Some, like Pete, feel it’s a minimal thing that is outweighed by the merit of the stories. Some think it’s completely irrelevant. Others have different levels of comfort with it. This is an area where I don’t think there is a right or wrong, but in my opinion and from my perspective it’s time to get over the HPL fixation due in large part to the racism and the fact that we are at a point in this hobby’s history where we NEED to distance it from this influence. And also because it’s just played out. We can do better, and we should demand better.

But you are absolutely correct, the average AH player may not have even read HPL. Or have any clue about the negative elements.

Apologies. I guess I just don't understand your larger point. I don't really see and am not aware of any HPL fixation. I have at times seen a fixation on the mythos.

Perhaps your point is related to a perceived problem with toxic fandom? I guess I don't really understand, or rather I'm not really aware of any connection with playing CW and a HPL fixation.
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20 Oct 2018 08:29 #283630 by GorillaGrody
Replied by GorillaGrody on topic F#@k H.P. Lovecraft

mtagge wrote:

Michael Barnes wrote: Slow down there boss. At no point am I suggesting anywhere in this, top to bottom, that anyone that like Lovecraft, plays Lovecraft games, or whatever is racist or supports racist ideology. The games are mostly innocuous regardless of their foundation. The ideologies are buried and it’s true- largely forgotten or plain unknown. You are jumping to a conclusion that I’m not making.

As stated, this is largely a personal decision that everybody has to make at some point with this kind of situation. Some, like Pete, feel it’s a minimal thing that is outweighed by the merit of the stories. Some think it’s completely irrelevant. Others have different levels of comfort with it. This is an area where I don’t think there is a right or wrong, but in my opinion and from my perspective it’s time to get over the HPL fixation due in large part to the racism and the fact that we are at a point in this hobby’s history where we NEED to distance it from this influence. And also because it’s just played out. We can do better, and we should demand better.

But you are absolutely correct, the average AH player may not have even read HPL. Or have any clue about the negative elements.

Apologies. I guess I just don't understand your larger point. I don't really see and am not aware of any HPL fixation. I have at times seen a fixation on the mythos.

Perhaps your point is related to a perceived problem with toxic fandom? I guess I don't really understand, or rather I'm not really aware of any connection with playing CW and a HPL fixation.


The honest point is that this is a site full of white guys who can afford to buy and spend a lot of time on board games. There's a lot of shit we're simply not going to either "get" or be able to explain to one another.

Here's a simple article on why the World Fantasy Award changed its statuette from Lovecraft to anything else: www.theguardian.com/books/2015/nov/09/wo...craft-as-prize-image

Though giving a content-free statue to someone might seem innocuous, just like a game with monsters in it seems innocuous, presenting Lovecraft's pallid likeness to writers of color such as N.K. Jemisin or Sofia Samatar as a reward for their stellar contributions to the genre would be an obscenity.

To believe that this is simply a static matter of eternally recurring tribalism--look, the above thing changed! for the better!-- is like a bacterial culture, and the only antiseptic for it would be to read literally anything on the subject other than an obscure thread of white people who play board games talking about whether or not Lovecraft is cool.

There's only so much we can do within this very, very unrepresentative forum to get ourselves up to speed on this issue.
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20 Oct 2018 08:33 #283631 by mads b.
Replied by mads b. on topic F#@k H.P. Lovecraft
I don't know if we *need* Lovecraft or WWII or anything else in our games. But games differ from movies, books and other works of story or even art by not having time to build worlds. Yes, it's well and good that there is a lot of fluff in Twilight Imperium, but reading it is not part of playing the game. So by using a setting that is known and has some established story beats to it, you can jump right into the storytelling which could potentially include subverting the standard tropes. So while using an established setting (like the mythos) can seem lazy, it can also be a great way to help the players focus on what you want them to focus on.

Now, for me this is most interesting when a "standard" setting is used primarily for storytelling. If the setting is just pasted on and makes no difference for the game, I see less reason to take this short cut.
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20 Oct 2018 09:06 - 20 Oct 2018 09:16 #283634 by stoic
Replied by stoic on topic F#@k H.P. Lovecraft
All of this witch hunting for the possible fragmentary racial sentiments of dead artists is ridiculous grand standing. These isolated comments do not define a person's identity or core beliefs. The author who started this F#@K H.P. Lovecraft post uses Mark E. Smith as his avatar. Well, isn't that racist too using the same racist ruler and arguments to cast aside an artist's art because there "might be" evidence that the artist was a racist asshole?




Mark E. Smith wrote the following song:

The Classical
Song by The Fall
Lyrics
There is no culture is my brag,
Your taste for bullshit reveals a lust for a home of office
This is the home of the vain!
This is the home of the vain!
Where are the obligatory n*****?
Hey there fuckface!
Hey there fuckface!
There are twelve people in the world
The rest are paste
This is the home of the vain!
This is the home of the vain!
I just left the hotel amnesia, I had to go there
Where it is I can't remember,
But now I can remember, now I can remember
Hafta! hafta!
Message for yer! message for yer!
Too much reliance on girl here
On girls here, behind every shell-actor
Snobbier snobbier
Too much romantic here
I destroy romantics, actors,
Kill it!
Kill it!
Kill it a!
Kill it!
Kill it a!
You won't find anything more ridiculous, than this new profile
Razor unit, made with the highest british attention to the
Wrong detail, become obsolete units surrounded by hail.
The classical!
The classical!
The classical!
Hotel aggro!
Message for yer! message for yer!
The classical!
Poleaxe a!
One of the millennium of conspiracy,
Forever,
I know it means a lot of stomach gas,
I know it means a lot of stomach gas,
I've never felt better in my life
I've never felt better in my life
Poleaxe a!
The classical!
Stomach gas
I've never felt better in my life
I've never felt better in my life
Poleaxe a!
Millennium of conspiracy
Play out classical
I've never felt better in my life
Better in my life
Songwriters: Mark E Smith
The Classical lyrics © Minder Music Ltd.


I guess we should say: F#@K Mark E. Smith too! Of course, Mark E. Smith would gladly tell me to go F#@K off too! I call for a ban of this Mark E. Smith avatar!
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20 Oct 2018 09:17 #283636 by Gary Sax
Replied by Gary Sax on topic F#@k H.P. Lovecraft
Moderated the use of the n word, yes, even in lyrics. My call. Your point remains the same.
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20 Oct 2018 09:27 - 20 Oct 2018 09:42 #283637 by stoic
Replied by stoic on topic F#@k H.P. Lovecraft

Gary Sax wrote: Moderated the use of the n word, yes, even in lyrics. My call. Your point remains the same.


I have no problem with moderating or redacting that ugly racist and demeaning word. However, if you're going to moderate the above quote, then you also need to moderate the very first quote of this thread too. Please check page 1.


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20 Oct 2018 10:25 #283639 by Jackwraith
Replied by Jackwraith on topic F#@k H.P. Lovecraft
And I think we're done here. Everyone has said their bit and we're just starting to get into tit-for-tat exchanges. There are many other things to talk about, like, y'know, actual games.
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20 Oct 2018 10:29 #283640 by Gary Sax
Replied by Gary Sax on topic F#@k H.P. Lovecraft
Stoic, you're right. I haven't been paying much attention to this thread. I agree my moderation is pretty hypocritical in that light.
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20 Oct 2018 11:00 #283643 by ChristopherMD
Replied by ChristopherMD on topic F#@k H.P. Lovecraft
Forum moderators don't moderate articles or blogs. That's on the front page editing guy. There's some weird crossover with articles showing in the forums now but I still wouldn't edit the OP.
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20 Oct 2018 12:46 - 20 Oct 2018 12:47 #283646 by ubarose
Replied by ubarose on topic F#@k H.P. Lovecraft
This blog did not appear on our front page, our social media or our feeds. That was my call. I am not a guy, by the way - since we are discussing representation in our hobby.

The discussion is the domain of our moderators - any moderation of this thread is their call.

Blogs on this site belong to the blogger and are mostly unmoderated and unedited, other than I choose what makes it to the front page and we can remove members’ blog publishing privileges altogether.

This blog exists in a grey space since it was written by a member who is also our editor-in-chief. However, he submitted it as a blog, not as an article, so it doesn’t go through our editorial process. If it had been submitted by a regular member, as blog manager I probably would have temporarily unpublished it and touched base with our editor-in-chief and our community manager regarding the use of the n-word, which in this instance also exists in an unusual space. I was uncomfortable seeing it written out in full, but concluded that I should be uncomfortable with it (and shocked, and horrified), and that was actual point of the blog, and therefore it should remain. Since it was written by one of the three people I would normally tap for a decision, that made two out of three votes, so I let it fly.

I totally trust Chris and his staff to handle any discussion that develop from the blogs and articles. It dumps a lot in their laps. They need to make a lot of hard calls. I ask that everyone appreciate and respect that.
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