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Counterpoint: I don't want to be THOSE guys

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28 Feb 2019 12:45 - 28 Feb 2019 12:46 #293202 by hotseatgames
I'm reminded of my favorite PC game of recent times, PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds. The first map (and thus the most popular map) has a few "hot spots" that are particularly violent.

I suspect this was unintentional / an unfortunate coincidence (the developers are not from the USA), but the MOST dangerous place in the whole map is an abandoned school. This comes down to map location; the school is in the center of the map and is thus tactically advantageous in a battle royale game.

Many times, I have thought about how grim it is that so much virtual lead is being flung around in the halls of this virtual school, despite there not being a living soul left on the island. Indeed, the times I have landed at the school and lived to tell about it are victories in themselves. Ultimately, it is one location among hundreds, and I move past it, because I love the game.

I can easily see how some might have more trouble moving past that.
Last edit: 28 Feb 2019 12:46 by hotseatgames.
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28 Feb 2019 12:57 #293203 by Jackwraith

xthexlo wrote: I really enjoyed this article: it made me pause between paragraphs and think. Of course, everyone has their own reason(s) to approach or recoil from a game based on its theme or setting or context, but not everyone is willing or able to articulate those reasons. This article provides some nice vocabulary to start these conversations for those that wish to engage.


Awesome. i'm glad it worked for you.

xthexlo wrote: Also, it raises an interesting question regarding the influence of social society and norms on game design. Are the days gone where designers would simply create games driven by their own interests, and now must temper their creativity to ensure public acceptance? (Perhaps those days never really existed, and I'm merely looking back through foggy lenses.)


Can't remember where I saw it, but there was a piece from a few years ago that cited several games from the early part of the 20th century that were, uh, not socially acceptable in modern times. I think people are more conscious of those factors now, but the question remains: Is it because they're actually concerned about offending someone and perpetuating a ridiculous ideology/perspective or because they know they'll be accosted for it instantly through Twitter or other media?
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28 Feb 2019 13:01 - 28 Feb 2019 13:03 #293204 by Jexik
I played Secret Hitler a year or two ago and enjoyed it, even as a fascist. In one game I was even Hitler and when everyone's eyes are closed and I was supposed to put my thumb up for my team, I decided to be extra noticeable and do the Nazi salute. My team thought it was funny and struggled to control their smiles and all avoided laughing. We went on to win... The game is so far from reality though, I mean the fascists are depicted as reptiles. Perhaps my gesture was in poor taste, and I can play the "I'm actually a Jew" card, but I don't think the game glorifies their ideas in any way.

I also think the game would be less popular if it had a Harry Potter license or something as some have suggested. So it's deliberately using the shock value of its title and subject matter as marketing.

In general, I find that games are a safe space to engage in otherwise antisocial behavior (perhaps that's why we get some more weirdos per capita?), be it bankrupting your friends in Monopoly or Acquire, down to outright violence in current settings.
Last edit: 28 Feb 2019 13:03 by Jexik.
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28 Feb 2019 13:01 #293205 by xthexlo

Jackwraith wrote: ... but the question remains: Is it because they're actually concerned about offending someone and perpetuating a ridiculous ideology/perspective or because they know they'll be accosted for it instantly through Twitter or other media?


This question is critical.
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28 Feb 2019 13:22 #293206 by GorillaGrody
Great article.

I have been considering getting into Bolt Action, a WW2 miniatures game, and it strikes me that, while I don't have a big problem playing as Rommel in a zoomed-out depiction of war, I have a much bigger problem playing with little Nazi soldiers. The players in the store I go to have modded the game so that The Red Skull and units of dolled-up Nazi She-Wolves are a part of the play, but it's pretty unconvincing.

I briefly considered instead playing as the Soviets, but then someone mentioned that you'd paint them "in all grey, with grey, hollowed out faces" and I thought, yeah, not that either.
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28 Feb 2019 13:32 #293207 by Colorcrayons

Jackwraith wrote:

xthexlo wrote: Also, it raises an interesting question regarding the influence of social society and norms on game design. Are the days gone where designers would simply create games driven by their own interests, and now must temper their creativity to ensure public acceptance? (Perhaps those days never really existed, and I'm merely looking back through foggy lenses.)


Can't remember where I saw it, but there was a piece from a few years ago that cited several games from the early part of the 20th century that were, uh, not socially acceptable in modern times. I think people are more conscious of those factors now, but the question remains: Is it because they're actually concerned about offending someone and perpetuating a ridiculous ideology/perspective or because they know they'll be accosted for it instantly through Twitter or other media?


Well, since STF is being used as an example, I'd like to chime in.

I think there is a market for STF. While I can suspend my own discomfort long enough to enjoy what STF has to offer, I would enjoy it more and actually purchase it if it held a different theme.

That said, it handled what it did well. There is no outcry from on social media about the eco terrorists portrayal for example, when some could knee jerk with a reaction and take it personal. I think it left just enough room to allow liberals to see the danger of extremism without pointing fingers. It trusted in the intelligence in some small way of the consumers not to be utter pratts.

It must also be noted that someone will always choose to be offended by something, and shout from the mountaintops about how horribly they are personally disenfranchised. The full spectrum of extremes from Ted Kaczynski all the way to the other side by claiming #MeToo because you had a bad date with Aziz Ansari. I don't believe you can prepare for those extremes. You can only have faith that the majority of people aren't idiots.

But if you are using the "creating using your own interests" as a shield to hide behind by creating objects that glorify examples such as vaccination alternatives or racial supremacy, then you reap what you sow. Plus, you'd lower the collective intelligence in the room with that garbage.
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28 Feb 2019 14:03 #293208 by Jackwraith

Jexik wrote: I also think the game would be less popular if it had a Harry Potter license or something as some have suggested. So it's deliberately using the shock value of its title and subject matter as marketing.


Yeah, and I think that's actually a valid approach. On the one hand, I don't want the concepts behind Hitler or the Nazis to be perceived as acceptable enough to become part of the norm (i.e. On every shelf: Tigris and Euphrates, Settlers of Catan, and Secret Hitler.) OTOH, I don't want the topic (racism, genocide) to become Godwinned, either. I think it's stupid that we can't have normal conversations about this point in history and the people that drove it. We have to remember this stuff and the usual calls for "Keeping politics out of games/sports/movies/Sunday dinner conversation/whathaveyou" are a dodge. Games are part of the real world, even if they're a form of escapism. Thus, they are impacted by politics and the history that follows.
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28 Feb 2019 14:08 #293209 by Jackwraith

Colorcrayons wrote: It must also be noted that someone will always choose to be offended by something, and shout from the mountaintops about how horribly they are personally disenfranchised. The full spectrum of extremes from Ted Kaczynski all the way to the other side by claiming #MeToo because you had a bad date with Aziz Ansari. I don't believe you can prepare for those extremes. You can only have faith that the majority of people aren't idiots.


Well, on that last point, prepare yourself to be miserably disappointed most of the time. However, I don't want the extremes to be used to dismiss something that's valid. Just because the professional offense-takers do exist doesn't mean that the entire #MeToo movement can be casually waved away as much ado about nothing. And I wasn't trying to encourage the crowd down to their local Torch and Pitchfork. Despite using STF as an example (sorry, Hotseat), my intent with this was purely to reflect a personal choice and maybe ask some questions about how people (including me) make those choices.

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28 Feb 2019 14:15 #293210 by Jexik

Jackwraith wrote:

Jexik wrote: I also think the game would be less popular if it had a Harry Potter license or something as some have suggested. So it's deliberately using the shock value of its title and subject matter as marketing.


Yeah, and I think that's actually a valid approach. On the one hand, I don't want the concepts behind Hitler or the Nazis to be perceived as acceptable enough to become part of the norm (i.e. On every shelf: Tigris and Euphrates, Settlers of Catan, and Secret Hitler.)


I don't own the game, but the more I think about it, I don't think I'd suggest it to my mom and her rabbi. But my mom kind of hates playing games anyway.

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28 Feb 2019 14:22 #293211 by ThirstyMan
I play more wargames now than I ever did say 10 years ago and they are usually to do with the titanic Nazi-Soviet Patriotic War (as the Soviets called it).

Strangely, I have no interest in playing the Americans in any of my wargames (primarily Operational Combat Series and ASL) but I think that may just be an innate anti-American bias that I struggle with.

I have had an interest in military strategy and tactics since a very young age so I make no apologies. I can separate the idea of playing the Nazi side from my personal feelings about the politics and the same for the Soviet side. It was nice to make Jeff listen to the Soviet National Anthem when he lost a game of ASL to me, playing as the Soviets, but that is just me being cruel to Jeff. There are, of course, some distasteful characters in the hobby whom I generally avoid when I am not being blocked by them on Facebook. Obsessions with the symbolism (rather than the actual politics) is quite usual so the continual argument about black counters or blue counters for the various factions of the SS is quite a common debate that usually ends up with a banning or two (particular to ASL players).

I totally understand why people may feel uncomfortable with conflict, war, bad guys, Nazis and Soviets.

When I was about 9, I stated to my Dad that I never wanted to play Monopoly or Careers ever again. He bought me a 50p game, from SPI, on Waterloo and I was hooked. I loved the strategising but rapidly realised that I hated abstract wargaming like Chess or Go. I needed some immersion to enjoy it. Never looked back.

Of course, the simpler explanation is that I have some sociopathic tendencies, which may or may not be true, so I can 'switch off' my strong political feelings when I am playing. I guess everyone has their own justifications for playing wargames and I am sure that every one of them is different. I don't enjoy the competitive aspect of wargaming (the 'I HAVE to win or it's not worth playing' syndrome) so ALL of my play is solo play which I hugely enjoy.

On an associated note, there is a fairly amusing comedy sketch, from a UK show (Mitchell & Webb, I think), where the SS are questioning whether they are the bad guys after one of them notices a skull on his helmet.
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28 Feb 2019 17:14 #293217 by Frohike
This dynamic spans so many media, but it hits harder in board gaming for me, and I haven't really asked myself why that is. At it's core, it's a question of identification. I perceive my capacity to identify as a form of currency. What perspective do I gain in exchange for identifying, for my brief stint as a tourist at the center of another world view? Is it worth the expense? I also acknowledge that this currency, much like the real thing, is a finite supply delimited by my socio-political status. My comfort or discomfort with crossing the lines of identification can be afforded by my position in a society where I'm still seen as an "unmarked" identity, a free agent who can drift from colonizer to colonized and be given the foundational illusion that "I get it." Am I as wealthy with the capacity for identification as I think I am? Am I as judicious in spending it as I think I am, when certain lines of expense & reward are already laid out for me & auto-withdrawing from my account?

I think part of what brings these questions into sharper relief in board gaming is the explicit nature of the rule set. We're given the blueprints for our enactment and our role, and proceeding with play doesn't feel as nebulous as some other media. There's a kind of dotted line that I sign while learning & rehearsing my role that feels heavier than in other forms of entertainment.
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28 Feb 2019 19:32 #293222 by DukeofChutney
I'm generally in the shoot first ask questions later camp. Whilst even games like Labyrinth, whose interpretation I do not agree with, don't bother me I am occasionally bothered by the wider audience, but not so much in boardgames. In mini's and strategy video games I do think there is a fairly sizable populace of fascist fetishists who wax lyrical about the superiority of Nazi weapons, but there always feels like underneath it is a supremisit view of some sort. Spend enough time on the Eugen forums or message board in the Wargame series and you will see some evidence of this.
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28 Feb 2019 20:48 #293228 by Sevej
I really pity the game designers in this case. Because... really, you'll going to offend _someone_.

For me, generally with board game I don't really care. If the game's good I'll play. Of course, generally dungeon masters are boring, so I don't like playing them because they're boring, not because they are "evil".

But in computer games, these actually hit harder, especially with narrative-heavy games. I am never able to play as evil dude in Mass Effect or Skyrim. I just can't. May be because it's much more personal (the guy is individual representation of me).

On the other hand, Nazi, eco terrorist, etc... is so far away removed from me. Nobody here would bat an eye if I say the N word, so something like blaxploitation won't have any negative effect. Middle eastern terrorist may cause some ire, and any LGBT reference will immediately doom the game (with possible death threats to the designer).
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28 Feb 2019 20:57 #293229 by SaMoKo
Perhaps the eco terrorists are dastardly villains who dump oil into baby seal bays, burn rainforests for fun, and dump mercury into water supplies

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28 Feb 2019 21:45 - 28 Feb 2019 21:46 #293230 by Jackwraith

Sevej wrote: Middle eastern terrorist may cause some ire, and any LGBT reference will immediately doom the game (with possible death threats to the designer).


Which is a whole other set of complications...
Last edit: 28 Feb 2019 21:46 by Jackwraith.

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