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Value for Money - Are Board Games Worth It?

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23 Jul 2020 14:36 #312391 by the_jake_1973
A couple of the last KS games I backed, the plastic was indeed the draw.

Marvel United from CMON because I do like those funky little chibis.

Tanares Adventures got me due to some good praise the game had here, but also all that glorious plastic.

I'm a sucker for it and I love it.

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23 Jul 2020 15:18 #312394 by southernman

fightcitymayor wrote:

Erik Twice wrote: But I just don't think the average Kickstaerter backer actually enjoys the deluxe components he pays for, if simply because they don't seem to actually play those games. And I play with those people, and I don't see them really enjoying the megacomponents so much.
We often like the idea of playing more than the actual play. And I see something similar with components.

southernman wrote: The simple fact that these games are selling year after year, in increasing numbers (please check the numbers pledging towards games from Awaken Realms in the last couple of years, they ain't dropping), makes your observation a guess rather than a researched observation.

Both could be true facts.
KS buyers keep buying because they are indeed entranced by the plastic toys.
And
KS buyers who buy said toys either buy them specifically for re-sale, or as collectors, or to avoid FOMO, or because they fall in love with the idea of playing the game although they never actually get around to playing the game, or some other reason that results in the plastic toys not being integral to the gaming experience.


Never said it may not be true, said it was a big bloody guess.

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23 Jul 2020 16:30 #312396 by ubarose
I think people don't play their deluxe KS's because they get enticed by the marketing, and the games just turn out to be crummy. Deluxe components won't make a crummy game good. They won't make you like a game you simply don't enjoy. Heck, there are so many gorgeous chess sets out there, but I don't like chess so having a beautiful set isn't suddenly going to make me start playing chess.

However, if a game is good, and you do love it and play it a lot, then having deluxe components makes an enjoyable experience even more enjoyable. Bonus if the components are more durable or more functional, like bigger cards that are easier to read, chunkier bits that are easier to manipulate.

It's like, I don't like to cook. My kitchen is over 25 years old. The cabinets are worn, the counter's are cracked, my pans are dented and missing lids. Marble countertops, new cabinets and high end cook ware aren't going to make me like cooking. But for my friends who do like to cook and who spend a lot of time in their kitchen, those things are important to them, and make their hobby even more enjoyable.
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23 Jul 2020 17:41 #312398 by Jackwraith
I was pointing out to someone the other day that components can contribute quite a bit to a game, both for players and for observers. For example, I know that having the fortifications for Rising Sun as plastic models rather than cardboard tokens makes zero difference in actual gameplay, but it makes a ton of difference in visual appeal. I've had people walking through a game store stop at the tables and squeal: "Turtles!" when seeing someone put another Turtle Clan fort down. For a game often derided based on the opinion that the elaborate figures "don't do that much" (woefully incorrect, BTW), the plastic makes a difference when considering the overall experience.

It makes a difference between games, too. Battlelore, 2nd Ed. is a two-player wargame, just like any of several hundred hex-and-counter games out there. But when you switch from one to the other, it makes a difference. It's just a lot cooler to move Flesh Rippers and Wraiths around on the board than it is a couple pieces of cardboard with numbers on them.

OTOH, one of the best games ever printed is made up of cardboard hexagons, so one can definitely argue that components are not the be-all and end-all. But no one here was arguing that. They're just saying that they enhance the experience of many games.
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24 Jul 2020 00:04 #312413 by san il defanso
I buy games so rarely these days that I really don't have much valuable to add to this conversation, but I do think that at this point in my life I am more interested in games with well-made cardboard and paper components, rather than games with sumptuous minis. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but it's the difference between say, Duel of Ages II and Twilight Imperium. Not that one is better, but I am kind of over sculpted plastic.

(Obviously that's not meant as a generalization of what other people want from Kickstarters. I find it laughable that anyone would try to make such sweeping generalizations, frankly.)

Part of this also has to do with my own reality though, which is that I have moved a lot recently and don't have a ton of space for really big games, and sculpted plastic makes for VERY big games. Shipping big productions is also really a hassle. I have no idea what I'll do when we inevitably move away from the Philippines.

But yeah, I basically just buy D&D books now, so I have no room to talk.
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24 Jul 2020 00:47 #312416 by Gary Sax
I've finally got to play a lot of the shelf toads which I am famous for since the covid break:

Food Chain Magnate
John Company
Imperial Struggle
Pax Pamir 2nd
Root

...and they've been fucking real bangers and didn't disappoint at all. So, I mean, something like Food Chain Magnate is a great example. Expensive as a KS but without great components. The definition of a "value for money" problem. But it is great and I'm glad I spent the 100 dollars!

I'm in a weird place because I feel like this site (not really this thread, more a general statement) is sort of sinking into a defensive crouch of "gaming is being ground down by expensive consumerism and needs to shift toward simpler accessible games" yet I'm feeling like the last 5 years of super niche hobby gaming have produced some of the best games in my collection and I love where we're at---and the shit that I have really thought was grim boring shit was this accesible family game shit like Wingspan. I don't resent my super simple cheap and cheerful TWBG brethren but boy do I not live in that world.
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24 Jul 2020 01:05 #312418 by Jackwraith
No, I'm right there with you. I thought Wingspan was pretty mundane. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the simplicity of something like Pax Pamir. It's just blocks, cards, and a cloth "board" but the depth of it is amazing. I totally see the attraction of that because I'm attracted by it. It's like Theseus. You're just moving wooden disks around some cardboard sheets and playing cards. But it's a brilliant game.

At the same time, I will never regret owning piles o'plastic games like Rising Sun and Cry Havoc and Cthulhu Wars (It has to be said that Petersen probably went a little OTT with some of that stuff, but it still looks brilliant.) Hell, the Funkoverse game is kind of that because you're always going to have 6 big head, Funko Pop figures running around the board with little plastic weapons in every game. Do we NEED that for a relatively simple game? No. But that's part of what makes it fun.

This all goes back to what many people at GW used to insist was the essence of their business. They said: "We're a modeling company that has some wargame rules." I think that was their version of whistling past the graveyard when their games had obvious flaws that needed adjustment, but the fact is that a lot of people play 40K, et al because that stuff looks really cool on the table. Their long history of producing increasingly expensive models for their games and still staying in business makes it really hard to argue that people don't want that stuff in the games that they're shelling out hundreds, if not thousands, for.
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24 Jul 2020 09:16 #312424 by san il defanso

Gary Sax wrote: I'm in a weird place because I feel like this site (not really this thread, more a general statement) is sort of sinking into a defensive crouch of "gaming is being ground down by expensive consumerism and needs to shift toward simpler accessible games" yet I'm feeling like the last 5 years of super niche hobby gaming have produced some of the best games in my collection and I love where we're at---and the shit that I have really thought was grim boring shit was this accesible family game shit like Wingspan. I don't resent my super simple cheap and cheerful TWBG brethren but boy do I not live in that world.


You know, it occurred to me reading this thread that while I'm thoroughly burnt out on minis, I do still get tingles from overwrought productions on anything besides that. I mentioned Duel of Ages II, and it's rich for me to use that game as any sort of metric for what games SHOULD be like because I got it as a review copy, and full retail it's well over $200. (Back in the days when you could find the whole game for retail, that is.) There is something fundamentally appealing to a lot of us about really giant games, whether it's lots of minis, copious table space, or lots of cards and tokens all over the place.

I'm not really in a place to comment on this because my experience over the last few years has been far from exhaustive. But it feels like the giant production is increasingly going into games that ten years ago would have been something that cost like $40. I think of something like Scythe, which looked really nice, but probably didn't really need to cost $80 and had this ludicrous production. I know that the production is part of the point, but I have always felt a little like it's selling a bill of goods that it won't fulfill. Am I really mistaken in that? Are simpler games getting more and more ornate physically?

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24 Jul 2020 09:50 #312426 by Shellhead

san il defanso wrote: I think of something like Scythe, which looked really nice, but probably didn't really need to cost $80 and had this ludicrous production. I know that the production is part of the point, but I have always felt a little like it's selling a bill of goods that it won't fulfill. Am I really mistaken in that? Are simpler games getting more and more ornate physically?


Scythe totally needed to look nice and cost $80, because it is a Veblen good. The actual game is average quality, but the art took it up and over the top, and the elevated price paid for the pretty and duped buyers into thinking that they were buying a great game.

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24 Jul 2020 11:38 #312429 by Jexik
When I think "simpler game" of what I've been into the past few years, Kingdomino jumps right out, and it only cost $15. The tiles are pretty chunky though; I'm kinda surprised it managed a price point as low as it did.
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24 Jul 2020 12:43 #312434 by RobertB

Shellhead wrote:

san il defanso wrote: I think of something like Scythe, which looked really nice, but probably didn't really need to cost $80 and had this ludicrous production. I know that the production is part of the point, but I have always felt a little like it's selling a bill of goods that it won't fulfill. Am I really mistaken in that? Are simpler games getting more and more ornate physically?


Scythe totally needed to look nice and cost $80, because it is a Veblen good. The actual game is average quality, but the art took it up and over the top, and the elevated price paid for the pretty and duped buyers into thinking that they were buying a great game.


Speaking as a duped buyer, it looked like an interesting game with great bits, if you sprung for them. Since cardboard chits, bog-standard game art, and wooden meeples usually cost you $50, bumping production values up a notch or two was obviously going to cost more. As for gameplay, I like Scythe okay. Wouldn't turn it down, haven't dragged it out in a while. When it came out it was a bit misrepresented as a 4X conflict game, and some people were less than pleased; I myself was disappointed.

As for games as conspicuous consumption, that would imply showing off a game to impress someone, as opposed to bringing it out because it might be fun. It could happen, sure, but I don't recall ever seeing it.

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24 Jul 2020 14:00 #312438 by Jackwraith

RobertB wrote: As for games as conspicuous consumption, that would imply showing off a game to impress someone, as opposed to bringing it out because it might be fun. It could happen, sure, but I don't recall ever seeing it.


Every COMC post on r/boardgames has entered the chat.
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24 Jul 2020 14:03 - 24 Jul 2020 14:08 #312439 by Sagrilarus
I don't want people to misunderstand my original point, as I think this conversation has gone down a different path.

I don't have a problem with bling in general, I have a problem with a publisher putting 95% of their effort and marketing into bling and attaching grade C game to it. The game needs to stand on its own, and when it doesn't you just have a big box of garbage taking up space in your room and in your life.

I have a big bucket of Heroscape and another of Wings of Glory that frankly could be pared down to a single box each and in the case of the latter a pretty damn small one. But each has brought me 100+ hours of play because there's a good foundation to the games. Each also allowed me to select the level of inventory I wanted to carry. That is, I determined I valued these games; I opted to buy extras for them.

For each game there's a certain set of people that will be lifetime players, repeat players. Even games that I find dismal have a loyal following. If those people want to purchase upgraded components and wooden organizers and all that it's their business. They can spend their money on the things they value. But the industry as a whole is trying to sell that "lifetime game" package right out of the gate, because it's more profitable and less risky in a vaporware-driven market.

More recently I've seen games coming out on the cheap (sub $30) and that's super-cool. But that's not where the conversation is in an industry that has decided to adopt the gourmet business model. I have to listen to people like Josh and Al to get introduced to these titles, and there ain't a lot of Josh or Als out there because the "influencers" in the industry are on board with the vaporware concept. Don't know anything out about a game? Talk about the component quantity!

The result for me personally is that I'm more or less locked out of much of the industry's product short of picking it up used at half price, and then trading it away at a later date due to size constraints. The question I'm generally asking myself when looking at a new title is this -- how much of the value is game, and how much bling? An awful lot of the time I'm suspecting most of the perceived value is directly related to the weight of the box. Don't like that much.
Last edit: 24 Jul 2020 14:08 by Sagrilarus.
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24 Jul 2020 14:23 #312442 by Ah_Pook
Like basically all hobbies, boardgames aren't "worth it" in real what am I getting for my money terms. You're spending disposable money on stuff you think is fun or cool. You could argue that they're more or less worth it than a shed full of wood working tools or fishing stuff or a room full of mint in box He-Man figures or whatever... But being monetarily worth it isn't really what hobbies are about I don't think?
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24 Jul 2020 15:01 #312443 by RobertB

Jackwraith wrote:

RobertB wrote: As for games as conspicuous consumption, that would imply showing off a game to impress someone, as opposed to bringing it out because it might be fun. It could happen, sure, but I don't recall ever seeing it.


Every COMC post on r/boardgames has entered the chat.


I laughed. :)

I don't go to tons of conventions, but I never saw any boardgamer showing off their awesome games at the ones I went to. The exception would be that they were dying to play the games (raises hand).

M:tG cards are a different story - a friend would show off his complete Unlimited set, and that was totally conspicuous consumption.
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