Tainted Grail - The Fall of Avalon Review

charlest wrote: I agree with this review (very well written too), but I don't think I would have enjoyed it nearly as much if it was a video game.

By shifting to an electronic format the competition is entirely different. This game doesn't stand out or provide anything really unique in that format.

However, as a tabletop design I get much joy travelling the land and seeing the large cards form a picturesque environment. Additionally, flipping through the book and seeing the choices branch before you hits a choose your own adventure feel I would miss.

True, and I think that will be the downfall of any analogue game that tries to ape the conventions of videogames. They'll always be playing catch-up with one leg tied. The choose your own adventure/fighting fantasy element definitely milks the right nostalgia glands for me too but just doesn't sit right as a group activity. Especially if certain members of the group are too reserved and/or stoic to do the funny voices hahaha

hotseatgames wrote: I have neither played this in tabletop or video game form. But like others have mentioned, I always feel like these kinds of things just can't win. They are too unwieldy in tabletop form, so they would be better served electronically. BUT... at that point there is no real reason to have tabletop-style game play, so now you have a lackluster video game. :/

To serve two masters right? It's a bit like singing drummers hahaha. Cool in theory...
(Sorry Ventor)

Gary Sax wrote: I tend to like these many-systems-solo-ish games, but what holds them back is when they are a campaign system. My table has multiple uses, so I just can't keep this stuff set up. If I had lots of extra spending money I'd probably get one of those overpriced drop surface gaming tables for these sorts of these games, tbh.

Yeah, as you can see we're playing on the floor which does wonders for the lower back. It does have a fairly functional save system- especially if your sessions are frequent enough that you don't lose the thread mentally but I'd love to have a dedicated gaming table, or even a dining table of sufficient dimensions to leave these things set up to approach at leisure rather than as a dedicated and pre-meditated 'date'. Although if that were the case it would probably be crowded by Dungeon Degenerates or KDM so...

I like the idea of campaign games more than the reality I think. It's great to have an evolving story or circumstance to dwell upon between sessions but for the most part they're just too long. Give me a story (or even 3-4 separate stories) that can be spun through in 4-5 sittings and i'd be chuffed. Pandemic Legacy was a great example of this. A campaign game where the story mostly evolved out of play mechanics and didn't overstay its welcome. I'm looking forward to the KIng's Dilemna for similar reasons.

Actually Machina Arcana does this really well too. Self contained stories that can be played as a continuing arc and I hear the writing in the new expansion is going to be fire! ON KICKSTARTER SEPTEMBER 22!!!

Msample wrote: TAINTED FAIL should have been the name of this review, LOL. I was surprised to see it got 3 stars after reading it to be honest.

Haha I considered that for about a picosecond but it's way too obvious. Other contenders were 'Coke Fuelled Bryan Ferry Solo Album spirals out of control' and 'WICKED ZOOT!'

In the end the length of the subtitle put paid to any crap witticisms.

As far as the star rating I have to say I reeeaaaally hate having to provide one. I don't think anyone is served by condensing analysis into an arbitrary binary metric. In awarding it three stars i was accounting for the quality of components and writing, the ambition and the fact that i acknowledge it may well work better for others than it did for me. You'll see me hand out a lot of three star reviews! But the text should do the talking

Andi Lennon wrote: As far as the star rating I have to say I reeeaaaally hate having to provide one. I don't think anyone is served by condensing analysis into an arbitrary binary metric. In awarding it three stars i was accounting for the quality of components and writing, the ambition and the fact that i acknowledge it may well work better for others than it did for me. You'll see me hand out a lot of three star reviews! But the text should do the talking

I feel like a 2 star rating might have the unfortunate effect of having people skip the review entirely. "Oh, this is bad? I guess I don't need to worry about it then." A 3 is more like, "tell me more about this almost-there game." It definitely seems like you wanted to like this one.

Jexik wrote:

Andi Lennon wrote: As far as the star rating I have to say I reeeaaaally hate having to provide one. I don't think anyone is served by condensing analysis into an arbitrary binary metric. In awarding it three stars i was accounting for the quality of components and writing, the ambition and the fact that i acknowledge it may well work better for others than it did for me. You'll see me hand out a lot of three star reviews! But the text should do the talking

I feel like a 2 star rating might have the unfortunate effect of having people skip the review entirely. "Oh, this is bad? I guess I don't need to worry about it then." A 3 is more like, "tell me more about this almost-there game." It definitely seems like you wanted to like this one.

I really did man, especially after how much I spent on it and how long I waited for it to arrive.

A grim themed adventure game with CYOA elements and tactical combat? HOOK IT TO MY VEINS!

Alas, a cautionary tale.

As someone still waiting for his copy to arrive (one of my many kickstarters delayed by six months or more this year) I must thank you for destroying any hopes I had left after Charlie's review a few months back .

I had the same excited expectations as you mentioned when I first read about oh so long ago and backed it but from the two reviews here it sounds like the designers got themselves into a narrative and thematic quagmire they couldn't turn around form and leave - but I will be optimistic that it does enough of what I wanted so that I want to both finish it and then get into the expansions.
Not to keen to hear about the conflicting reasons why both solo and multiplayer, I want this to work with my small gaming group for the experience plus I am a terrible solo gamer (I have many games that could be played solo and how many did I get out during the COVID lockdown ... zero).
And then I get to worry about whether a similar kickstarter I have arriving next year, Aeon Trespass: Odyssey, will have similar problems.
But I agree that companies have to explore new paradigms rather than just sit with the standard designs and produce clone after clone.

Quick question to you and Charlie - do you have any ideas/variants (or plain just change some rules) to get around the Menhir and other game churn aspects that would not change the game design much but enhance (and shorten) the experience ?

And a quick comment on card combat - when done well it can reward a bit of tactical planning to enhance the randomness of the actual card draws (a la dice roll), I thought it was well done in FFG's Middle Earth Quest as well as Forbidden Stars (with the latter using a custom card deck to provide tactical additions to the initial dice roll).

Great review (contrary to my grumpy kiwi opening sentence)

Andi Lennon wrote:

hotseatgames wrote: I have neither played this in tabletop or video game form. But like others have mentioned, I always feel like these kinds of things just can't win. They are too unwieldy in tabletop form, so they would be better served electronically. BUT... at that point there is no real reason to have tabletop-style game play, so now you have a lackluster video game. :/

To serve two masters right? It's a bit like singing drummers hahaha. Cool in theory...
(Sorry Ventor)

Karen Carpenter was both a drummer and an amazing singer, but I don't think she ever sang while playing the drums.

ubarose wrote: @southernman

I remember that you were very excited about this when you backed it. I really hope that when you finally get it, it is awesome for you and your group and that you come back and tell us about what a great time you had with it.

Shellie has just hexed it

ubarose wrote:

southernman wrote:

ubarose wrote: @southernman

I remember that you were very excited about this when you backed it. I really hope that when you finally get it, it is awesome for you and your group and that you come back and tell us about what a great time you had with it.

Shellie has just hexed it

No, no, no. I want to bring the good fairy magic and sprinkle it all over your game. No curses or hexes. Can I get a do-over?

You're the sports commentator who makes the remark 'they are kicking at 90% this season so this is a gimme' just as the kicker approaches the ball ....

southernman wrote: As someone still waiting for his copy to arrive (one of my many kickstarters delayed by six months or more this year) I must thank you for destroying any hopes I had left after Charlie's review a few months back .

I had the same excited expectations as you mentioned when I first read about oh so long ago and backed it but from the two reviews here it sounds like the designers got themselves into a narrative and thematic quagmire they couldn't turn around form and leave - but I will be optimistic that it does enough of what I wanted so that I want to both finish it and then get into the expansions.
Not to keen to hear about the conflicting reasons why both solo and multiplayer, I want this to work with my small gaming group for the experience plus I am a terrible solo gamer (I have many games that could be played solo and how many did I get out during the COVID lockdown ... zero).
And then I get to worry about whether a similar kickstarter I have arriving next year, Aeon Trespass: Odyssey, will have similar problems.
But I agree that companies have to explore new paradigms rather than just sit with the standard designs and produce clone after clone.

Quick question to you and Charlie - do you have any ideas/variants (or plain just change some rules) to get around the Menhir and other game churn aspects that would not change the game design much but enhance (and shorten) the experience ?

And a quick comment on card combat - when done well it can reward a bit of tactical planning to enhance the randomness of the actual card draws (a la dice roll), I thought it was well done in FFG's Middle Earth Quest as well as Forbidden Stars (with the latter using a custom card deck to provide tactical additions to the initial dice roll).

Great review (contrary to my grumpy kiwi opening sentence)

I think I talked about this when I wrote about the game, but I honestly just fudged and cheated a bit. Stuff like letting me skip a bit further along and estimate the resources it would cost me so it felt fair enough (mostly on one chapter which was stretched a bit too long).

I also skipped some combats and just applied some damage or spent some magic or whatever.

I really enjoyed the story and the setting was captivating to me. I was heavily invested in the fate of the round table and there are several twists in the game which had me mumbling "holy shit".

I think it's very flawed, mostly predicated on the grind, but overall it was a special experience for me and much more gripping than 7th Continent.

southernman wrote:
Quick question to you and Charlie - do you have any ideas/variants (or plain just change some rules) to get around the Menhir and other game churn aspects that would not change the game design much but enhance (and shorten) the experience ?

And a quick comment on card combat - when done well it can reward a bit of tactical planning to enhance the randomness of the actual card draws (a la dice roll), I thought it was well done in FFG's Middle Earth Quest as well as Forbidden Stars (with the latter using a custom card deck to provide tactical additions to the initial dice roll).

:

There is actually a built-in variant called 'story mode' that largely dispenses with the grinding by vastly reducing the resource cost to activate or re-light the menhirs, however you'll still need to travel back to them periodically to ensure the beacons stay lit. I'd honestly recommend going with this mode right out of the gates. It's how i'll be approaching the expansions if they ever get to the table. Also-the card based combat is indeed cool, just not really tuned to or suited for multiplayer.

I'm in on Aeon Trespass Colon Odyssey too but it looks like a wildly different game -the first Kingdom Death Colon Monster indebted successor. That was enough to pique my interest.