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Bugs: Recent Topics Paging, Uploading Images & Preview (11 Dec 2020)

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18 Mar 2021 16:06 #320825 by Shellhead
Replied by Shellhead on topic Cancelled
I understand your point, and I am probably the wrong person to ask why there should even be a game called Samurai. If I have a choice between playing a game about samurai or playing a game about salarymen, I will pick samurai 10 out of 10 times. I wouldn't actually want to live in Tokugawa Era Japan, but I admire their idealized notion of a noble warrior class, much the same way I admire the ideals of the U.S. Constitution despite the number of slaves owned by the founding fathers who wrote it.
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18 Mar 2021 16:37 #320828 by ubarose
Replied by ubarose on topic Cancelled
Shellhead, dude, you probably know more about Japanese history and culture than Knizia or his publishers. But I sincerely doubt you would have the arrogance to design a game about Japan.

What Knizia and his publishers know is the European fantasy of Japan aka Orientalism. It's like, okay, I've seen the Mikado & Madam Butterfly, I'm good to go. Let's set this game in Japan.
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18 Mar 2021 17:06 #320829 by Shellhead
Replied by Shellhead on topic Cancelled
Maybe there are a couple of larger issues that are getting tangled into this topic, possibly at my fault. First, much of what people think they know about history and other cultures is likely filtered through a bunch of movies and tv shows with varying degrees of inaccuracy. Second, many players like myself tend to be drawn to more violent roles and settings in games because we have a bias towards simulations of action instead of simulations of construction, trade, or diplomacy.

Stepping away from samurai for a moment, consider the American cowboy (as opposed to say, the Canadian cowboy or the Argentinian gaucho) in games. Thanks to popular Hollywood tropes, cowboys are seen as gun-toting men of action, with barroom brawls, range wars, bank robberies, and pistol duels at high noon. The good cowboys wear white hats, and the bad cowboys wear black hats, and they are all white men. In real life, the large majority of cowboys in the American Old West were either African-American or Mexican, and their role was an unglamorous job of tending to cattle and herding them across long distances. But most people don't want to watch a movie about cattle farming, they want to see fistfights and shootouts and explosions, and that sentiment often carries over to games.
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18 Mar 2021 18:17 #320832 by thegiantbrain
Replied by thegiantbrain on topic Cancelled

Erik Twice wrote: For example, that XKCD comic is one of my most hated images on the internet. Freedom of speech is not defined by the American constitution nor does it only affect goverments. I'm actually confused at why you would use it, Iain, since you are British, right? And neither Tabarni nor Eklund are under the jurisdiction of the US.


Yeah I am in the UK, Scotland. I used it because the term has been given its current form and weight mostly by US politics and has then spread out from that point. I think it makes the point very well that cancel culture is nothing more than people being critical of the things you are saying, and in the extreme case telling you to get lost. Now there is of course a wider ranging conversation to be had about free speech and what it means, international law etc. but I wanted to talk about the fundamentals of the term 'cancel culture', where it came from, and its implications in the boardgame world. As Erik points out, often the first call of someone having their view questioned in the States is to invoke the constitutional protection, which was another reason to include that particular comic.

I'm glad I could make Shellie think about her reaction to Calvin's post, which was very good. I have had trouble with these topics myself, and have found myself dismissing others concerns. I have been trying to see things from other people's perspectives a lot more in the last few years on The Giant Brain, and I think it makes me a better critic and a better reporter when it comes to Brainwaves. I hope I can continue to learn myself and persuade others to do the same.

Jackwraith's post was excellent on the problems Calvin was highlighting. Thanks very much for taking the time to break it down so succinctly.
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18 Mar 2021 18:56 #320836 by Erik Twice
Replied by Erik Twice on topic Cancelled
I don't think there's anything wrong with Z-Man's editions of those games. I think Calvin's arguments are vague and rely heavily on terms like "exotic" and "orientalist" which are poorly defined. I always feel the discussion on these topics relies heavily on semantics instead of what is really happening. I do disagree extremely strongly on the idea that there's anything wrong to create works of arts based on cultures other than our own.

I'm also uncomfortable by how the topic of "cultural appropiation" is often at odds with the opinion of the actual people being represented. Time and time again, people have shown they are happy to have foreigners create works based on their culture. We have seen this issue with Ghosts of Tsushima which was repeatedly accussed of orientalism and cultural appropiation by American writers only to be loved by Japan. There are many other examples, the eternal "should Westerners wear a Kimono" debate comes to mind.

Personally and like I believe most people, it's just a matter of doing the topic justice. If you do it well, if you are fair and don't fall into the same old racist tropes then you are welcome. I would love to see more games about Spain and I would also like to see foreign perspectives into my country.

For example, I'm glad Kramer made El Grande. The first edition gets details wrong (The regions use Francoist-era names) but the newer edition fixes that. The issue is the error not that a German made it.

Jackwraith wrote: Just picking out the one example of Samurai, the depiction of that warrior isn't even especially accurate.

What's inaccurate about it? He looks like a Sanada warrior to me. There's a famous armour that looks pretty much like the one in the cover. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it was used as the reference. He looks more accurate than the vast majority of games do. I see absolutely nothing objectionable about it.
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18 Mar 2021 20:38 #320839 by ubarose
Replied by ubarose on topic Cancelled
Orientalist and Orientalism are not vague terms. They are very specific. Here is a really good essay on it if you are unfamiliar. I forget that not everyone has studied as much art history as I have. Orientalism
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18 Mar 2021 21:13 #320840 by Jackwraith
Replied by Jackwraith on topic Cancelled

Erik Twice wrote: I don't think there's anything wrong with Z-Man's editions of those games.


I didn't say that. In fact, I specifically said that Z-Man shouldn't be castigated for their production. There's nothing specifically offensive about them. They're just using tropes to one degree or another and it's fair to ask for something different.

Erik Twice wrote: I think Calvin's arguments are vague and rely heavily on terms like "exotic" and "orientalist" which are poorly defined. I always feel the discussion on these topics relies heavily on semantics instead of what is really happening.


How is it your place to decide what's "really happening"? Or are you accusing Calvin and/or everyone else who's reacted to this issue of some kind of subversive agenda? Since you've complained about US topical hegemony in this thread already, I can say that you're embracing a pretty standard Republican party tactic if that's the angle you're taking. Or is that not what's "really happening"?

Erik Twice wrote: I do disagree extremely strongly on the idea that there's anything wrong to create works of arts based on cultures other than our own.


So do I. I've always disagreed with that idea. I grew up in Detroit where the vast majority of my friends and neighbors were Black. You can't tell me that I can't write about a Black character, especially if I'm basing that character on the people I knew. But that's precisely not what Calvin was saying (nor was I.) His assertion was about more emphasis on works actually created by Asian designers, regardless of theme.

Erik Twice wrote: There are many other examples, the eternal "should Westerners wear a Kimono" debate comes to mind.


I'm also rarely comfortable with assertions like this, given that my personal experience with people of other cultures, among them Japanese, demonstrated that they were quite happy to have other people embrace their traditions and customs. But, again, I wasn't making that point and neither was Calvin. No one said: "Only Japanese people should make Japanese-themed games." or that "Japanese themes by non-Japanese people were offensive." What Calvin was saying was that he felt like some of those tropes were overused and stereotypical and not representative of modern Japan or much of anything outside of an idealized version of the Sengoku period.

Erik Twice wrote: Personally and like I believe most people, it's just a matter of doing the topic justice. If you do it well, if you are fair and don't fall into the same old racist tropes then you are welcome.


This is, in essence, what was being said. But he was also suggesting that continuing to use that same Orientalist imagery was perpetuating the idea that those are the only acceptable/marketable/whathaveyou images for those cultures. They become a trope themselves. Consider the "noble savage" imagery attached to people from sub-Saharan Africa or pretty much any non-White character in countless adventure films and stories. That's the kind of trend that he was objecting to and I think it's a valid complaint. It doesn't mean that Z-Man or Knizia were approaching the games and their themes from a racist perspective. But colonialist...? There's room to argue there.

Erik Twice wrote: What's inaccurate about it?


The belt is wrong. The shikuro is too short. The do looks like European-style plating rather than the segmentation of the presumed period. But I'm kinda hyper-picky about these things. I know too much about tachi and katana, too.
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19 Mar 2021 01:04 - 19 Mar 2021 01:09 #320842 by Whoshim
Replied by Whoshim on topic Cancelled
I feel like the tensions in the US are moving us further away from unity. I think that mixing and mingling cultures is a good thing, but that that is now being attacked. There have been problematic representations of cultures/races by other cultures/races. But I think there are non-problematic ways for a culture/race to use another culture/race in its media.

The Japanese anime Trigun is about a sci-fi wild west and has a character that carries a cross around. I have no problems with that. There is an outlandish stereotype of an American in Samurai Flamenco. There are hilarious stereotypes of Americans on Korean SNL (American Dad vs Korean Dad).

In Korea and in Indonesia, people love it if you wear the traditional clothing hanbok and batik, respectively). I feel like it is a celebration of humanity for us to put all kinds of people from all kinds of places onto our games. "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." Taking ideas of art and style from other cultures is similar to what we do with food. Things get mixed and changed and adapted to suit the local culture. Chinese food in America, Korea, and Indonesia is all similar, but still quite different and distinct (particularly American Chinese food).

There may be issues of historicity in the representation in these games, but, in the Twilight of the White Boy Club, Michael Barnes wrote: "I want to be clear that I don’t give a fuck about historical authenticity in games, they are all fiction."

When we portray history in different media, things get adapted and changed. The portrayals of Vikings are almost always wrong, but it has just become a thing for them to wear horned helmets and have long braided hair. As long as the representation is not demeaning, I do not see a problem with things like samurai in games.

For me, I feel like these cultural arguments end up attacking games for being too white and not representing other groups, and then for representing other groups (even in a respectful way).

In the previous thread, I was told that getting Indonesian artists to do art for my game with Indonesian-looking characters would be fine. What if my Indonesian-looking characters are inhabiting a fantasy world with elements from Egypt, Europe, and other places? What is the way forward for white designers?

I feel like it is too often a Catch-22.

Finally:

Jackwraith wrote: No one said: "Only Japanese people should make Japanese-themed games."

ubarose wrote: Shellhead, dude, you probably know more about Japanese history and culture than Knizia or his publishers. But I sincerely doubt you would have the arrogance to design a game about Japan.


It seems to me like that is what is being said.
Last edit: 19 Mar 2021 01:09 by Whoshim.
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19 Mar 2021 04:43 - 19 Mar 2021 05:01 #320844 by Erik Twice
Replied by Erik Twice on topic Cancelled

Jackwraith wrote: I can say that you're embracing a pretty standard Republican party tactic if that's the angle you're taking. Or is that not what's "really happening"?

Ah yes, you got me. It was all a plan to embrace the politics of an American political party.

This is exactly what I meant. I should have kept my mouth shut, I'm out.

EDIT: For the record, I wasn't replying directly to you with my post, just giving my opinion on the subject. Calvin believes the covers are problematic, I don't. That's it. That doesn't mean I see them as "subversive agents" or whatever.
Last edit: 19 Mar 2021 05:01 by Erik Twice.
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19 Mar 2021 09:13 #320850 by fightcitymayor
Replied by fightcitymayor on topic Cancelled

Erik Twice wrote: I'm also uncomfortable by how the topic of "cultural appropiation" is often at odds with the opinion of the actual people being represented.

Good point. My current favorite is the progressive use of the term "latinx" which comes from a respectful place & makes sense to the largely college-educated white population that uses it (gets rid of the gendered Spanish language of Latina/Latino and simply replaces it with Latinx so as to be totally inclusive) except the vast majority of actual hispanics/latinos don't use it and don't want it to be used AND... and this is the kicker... see it as the very sort of imperialist language dominance that the folks pushing it would tell you they despise.

So an honest effort to be culturally inclusive is implemented in such a lazy, condescending, and sanctimonious manner that instead of being embraced it gets derided as the very same cultural imperialism that progressive folks claim to rail against.
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19 Mar 2021 09:23 #320851 by Jackwraith
Replied by Jackwraith on topic Cancelled

Erik Twice wrote: EDIT: For the record, I wasn't replying directly to you with my post, just giving my opinion on the subject. Calvin believes the covers are problematic, I don't. That's it. That doesn't mean I see them as "subversive agents" or whatever.


Then that's all you really had to say, right? It's perfectly valid to say that you don't think it's a problem. Shellhead has done so already in this thread. As noted before, we're not talking about blatantly racist depictions here or something like that. We're just talking about what has become customary and which could use some updating in the opinions of many/some/I don't know.

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19 Mar 2021 09:23 #320852 by Shellhead
Replied by Shellhead on topic Cancelled
I only took three years of Spanish in school, and I have only rarely used it since then, but even I could have warned people that "latinx" was an offensively stupid idea, because just about every single noun in the language is gendered.
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19 Mar 2021 09:26 #320854 by n815e
Replied by n815e on topic Cancelled
And yet, the only people I know of that use Latinx are Latinx people.
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19 Mar 2021 09:44 #320856 by Erik Twice
Replied by Erik Twice on topic Cancelled

Jackwraith wrote: Then that's all you really had to say, right?

I'm just tired of not being able to talk without some random American pidgeonholing me into their political system and views. I think you could have had enough respect to not say I'm using "Republican tactics" and say I view other people as having "subversive agendas" because I think their criticisms are vague.

I'm simply not willing to stand here while you insult me and compare me with McCarthy. Argue with someone else.
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19 Mar 2021 09:46 #320858 by charlest
Replied by charlest on topic Cancelled

n815e wrote: And yet, the only people I know of that use Latinx are Latinx people.


Same.

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