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Abstract vs Miniature Combat: Your preference and why

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26 Jun 2018 18:58 #276288 by repoman
So the True Believers and I have been doing some RP-ing of late as has been mentioned. 5th ed. Josh has been the DM and we've been playing it pretty loose vis a vis combat. No map, no tokens, just relative positions etc. It's been fun. Shellie has stated that she prefers this over "miniature game" combat.

Now I dig the very laid back way we've been playing. It's really relaxed and that's cool.

However, my own DM-ing style is a bit different. With the modern incarnation of D&D and many other RPG's, a whole lot of the rules and perhaps balance is founded on the use of 1 inch squares and a battle mat of some kind. Many of the abilities and spells sort of become irrelevant if there aren't defined spatial relationships. Therefore, I like to use my erasable battle mat and tokens to represent the foes and heroes.

So here are my questions:

1) Which method do you prefer and why?

2) Does using a battle mat/miniatures promote min/maxing with character design?

3) Do you feel that battle mat/miniatures extend the length of combat encounters unduly so that combat becomes the sole focus of a game session?

4) Are there any alternate game systems that you feel deal with "abstract combat" better than D&D?
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26 Jun 2018 19:11 #276290 by SuperflyPete
If you play “you are 30 feet away from the Jackalope, who gazed upon you with its crimson eyes, ears upright...what do you do” sort of stoeytelling vibe, fuck squares and minis. It takes you out of the story and makes you stop and do procedural shit. The “Stranger Things” style of combat storytelling is superior.

Only in RPG’s though.
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26 Jun 2018 19:22 #276292 by Colorcrayons

repoman wrote: 1) Which method do you prefer and why?

2) Does using a battle mat/miniatures promote min/maxing with character design?

3) Do you feel that battle mat/miniatures extend the length of combat encounters unduly so that combat becomes the sole focus of a game session?

4) Are there any alternate game systems that you feel deal with "abstract combat" better than D&D?


1) If combat is involved, then abstraction detracts from the experience.

By that, I mean, even if you say "this quarter reps the ogre, and this button is the mage" etc, positioning is important not only for immersion, but for accuracy as well.

We've used abstracted methods, such as simy keeping a battle order list for the DM to reference during a game. Not ideal, but can work adequately.

Breaking out a grid for games can be necessary though and are ideal to me.

We roleplay for egress, why not help suspend disbelief further by using minis or other such representative items?

2) No. If anything it's the opposite.

3) if anything, having such aids makes encounters shorter. But that also depends on the DM and what and how many encounters they make.

4) I did like Vampire's system, but then again it never seemed necessary to use maps and such for combat. Ironically, combat is less frequent in that game than D&D.
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26 Jun 2018 21:01 #276297 by quozl
I use both. If positioning is important, I use minis. If it isn't, I don't.
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26 Jun 2018 21:02 - 26 Jun 2018 21:05 #276298 by Sagrilarus
I prefer to only use a map when there's confusion. It breaks story and gets very positional, and I'd just as soon my boys learn how to communicate clearly. When things get confused, a quick sketch with pencil and paper.

I used to play with a guy I nicknamed Stainless Steel. Whenever something bad happened he'd argue he was somewhere else in spite of what had been previously described. He was an unmitigated pain in the ass. For him we had to use a map and shake a stick at him to get him to commit to where he was. That got to be torture.

So . . . I've explained to my boys that that violates Rule 0 and isn't fun. They're fine with describing where they are, even when the lights went out in the room with three freshly-opened coffins.
Last edit: 26 Jun 2018 21:05 by Sagrilarus.

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26 Jun 2018 21:10 - 26 Jun 2018 21:20 #276299 by Da Bid Dabid
I started with just describing combat and positioning, but found that my players are a lot of times too high or drunk to remember those sorts of things beyond where their own character is. I switched to using miniatures that I place on a laminated blank sheet with a very rough dry erase drawing underneath. We never count squares and keep movement and encumbrance as loose as possible. They describe what happens and I move the models and such, it basically acts as a visual aid for the abstracted combat you describe. Honestly, I think we get the best of both worlds that way.

1) Hybrid

2) No

3) No, I think the visual aid provided makes things quicker.

4) I've never played D and D but from what I know about it, it seems every other system does abstract combat better. FFGs Star Wars has a movement action change range ie. long to medium OR short range to engaged. Clearly, any of the apocalypse world type systems would fit into the abstracted style combat (haven't played any, just read rules).
Last edit: 26 Jun 2018 21:20 by Da Bid Dabid.
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26 Jun 2018 21:14 #276300 by ubarose
Dry erase board sounds like a great idea.

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26 Jun 2018 21:20 #276301 by san il defanso
I have a $10 Pathfinder dry erase mat I use when it gets complex enough to warrant it. For me that means any time there's more than a couple small dudes to fight. I get easily confused as a DM when there's enough characters in the game, so it's for my benefit as much as anything else. The dry erase mat lets me improvise rooms, track initiative, etc.

However, I do it for practicality more than atmosphere. 5e's combat is kind of thin for the tactically minded, and there's definitely an emotional arc to combat that I find evaporates with most groups after a certain point. So I like using a grid, but I'm not married to it at all.

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26 Jun 2018 21:26 - 26 Jun 2018 21:31 #276303 by the_jake_1973
I prefer using a close(melee), short, medium, long scale to describe relative position. I also play in Savage Worlds that plays well into that. Doing this tends to rely on players being more engaged in describing the action of the combat instead of saying, 'I swing my axe'. I find that my current group is not so inclined and would rather have combat on a grid.

Grid combat for me is tedious since it would really take me too long to model on paper/PC what is in a particular location. The dry erase grid lacked pizazz and then I didn't like it. The players do not seem to want to add to the color either in that situation, so we still get more of the 'I move 3 squares and swing my axe.' I did start giving people a -1 modifier on any attack that was described the same way twice in a row. If they made a crit attack or fumble, I would also ask them to describe it.


Playing in Savage Worlds, the abstract positioning flows well into the combat actions that allow for maneuvers or partner assists.


To top it off, these are the same people who aren't interested in games like Frostgrave. That's the kick in the teeth.

1) See above.
2) Min/maxers exist everywhere
3) Combat will last as long as it lasts. As a DM, I can fudge it a little more during an abstract fight to tailor it to the group vibe.
4) Savage Worlds, Spirit of the Century, Mouse Guard
Last edit: 26 Jun 2018 21:31 by the_jake_1973. Reason: I was supposed to answer questions?

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26 Jun 2018 22:21 #276304 by dysjunct
I don’t like a map, or at least not one with a grid. Combat should be pants-shittingly chaotic and terrifying, not a puzzle to solve. You shouldn’t be able to have a 30’ move every single time. Maybe a 2d30’ move — averages to around 30, but sometimes you slip on some poor asshole’s guts as he’s screaming and trying to stuff them back in. Or sometimes you reach deep down and sprint like your life depended on it. Because it probably does.

For abstract combat that is better than D&D:

The aforementioned Mouse Guard, its cousin Torchbearer, and its big daddy Burning Wheel.

The hopefully out of beta any time now Sword & Scoundrel. Beta is free at grandheresypress.com.
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26 Jun 2018 22:40 - 26 Jun 2018 22:41 #276307 by Jackwraith
When we started playing (uh, back in the late 70s), we had a dry erase hex mat that someone had acquired from some Avalon Hill types. We used minis and that mat because we were playing both D&D Basic and Expert(!) and then AD&D, but we were also playing Metagaming's The Fantasy Trip, which was developed from their (actually Steve Jackson's) minigames Melee and Wizard, so things like positioning and range were firmly embedded in our heads. Later on, when I ran campaigns in things like Villains and Vigilantes, it was a necessity because of the nature of the combat system. OTOH, when I ran games of my own creation or in things like TORG, it occasionally encumbered the proceedings because I was transmitting a vision that often had nothing to do with the figures on the table.

So, put me down generally in favor of minis because that's how I started and because I don't think it detracts from the storytelling capability of things like Necromunda and Mordheim, but I certainly understand the reluctance to use them and would never have used them in systems more geared toward setting and personal interaction, like most of White Wolf's output.
Last edit: 26 Jun 2018 22:41 by Jackwraith.
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26 Jun 2018 23:04 #276309 by Shellhead
It really depends on the game. If you aren't playing GURPS or D&D 3.5 on a grid, you might as well play an easier game. Call of Cthulhu is a different beast, where the emphasis is on the fear and the smarter characters are running away from the fight, leaving a smaller and more intimate fight scene that can and should be handled verbally. Diceless games like Amber or Lords of Olympus are pointless to put on a grid, because the fight will be resolved by direct GM fiat anyway, and in favor of advancing the story.

If the focus of the game is on role-playing, the grid slows things down and gets in the way. If the focus of the game is on combat, the grid or at least some basic tactical display will keep things moving on at a good pace. Avoiding that tactical display beyond reason will ultimately handicap the game, forcing you to only run short and simple fights or risk player confusion and disengagement.

When I played in vampire larps many years ago, combat was a problematic element in the game. For starters, all combat (and other contested challenges) were resolved via rock-paper-scissors, which is like flipping a coin that lands on its edge a lot. So combat is slow. And these were big larps, so it wasn't unusual for more than a dozen players to get in the fight. And it was also common for the rest of the players to want to continue role-playing among themselves during the fight. So the Storytellers would declare Stop Time in the vicinity of the fight and handle that in rounds of combat, while the rest of the players could keep going as long as they stayed out of the combat zone. Depending on the venue of the night, this could become a real hassle for the non-combatants, especially when a big fight took more than a half hour or so to play out. On average, probably 75% of the players strenuously avoided combat as their least favorite part of the game.

When I ran my Ptolus game, I was fortunate to discover a site hosting professional grade miniature maps for all of the locations used in adventures plus a few extras. I was working for a company that was going down the tubes at the time, so I often stayed late and printed off lots of color maps. I can almost fill a copier paper box with my Ptolus maps. And that was the campaign where I first started using wooden disks with pictures on them, instead of coins or cardboard heroes or minis. I think my players all loved the maps and tokens. Sometimes certain players were so anxious to explore the next room or the next section of corridor that they would venture ahead before the current fight was even over. Other times, the party would suddenly and inadvertently split up at a juncture or a room with multiple exits, as people rushed to explore in different directions. It was worth the long hours of scissorwork and organization that I did in advance. They also seemed to enjoy flipping over the disks of opponents that they dispatched in combat, even though I didn't bother depicting corpses on the back or anything neat like that.

I think that a whiteboard and dry erase markers is a great compromise on this issue. Use it only when necessary.

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27 Jun 2018 00:04 #276312 by Colorcrayons
D&D started out as a miniatures combat simulation anyways.

Chainmail.

A lot of the mechanics of early d&d were holdovers from that design.

So even though it's on fifth Ed. From what I understand, it still retains a lot of these elements.

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